JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Scratch]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

Well, during the last "Red Flag" exercise, Red air aggressors simulated a suprise attack with tacticas that/wich the Raptor pilots, these themselves having mostly not over only 50 fligh hours on the raptor, were not briefed on.
The attack came from an unexspected direction and controllers just said, these are bandits, react!
On that incident one F-16C pilot achieved the first ever simulated kill of a Raptor, after the Raptor having a 150+ : 0 (?) ratio during all the previous exercises.

Regarding Nero's claim and way of argumentation, if Pakistani pilots -in his case- can shoot down one Lightning II with an unexperianced pilots for every 150 of their own aircraft lost, they won't last long.

 

[IDonT]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

. i agree !!

the standard of training which the pakistani pilot posesses, they can pose a threat to even the F-35s

recently i came across an article where it was said that during simulating F-16s has shot down the first F-22s.

my point is that if american F-16s can take out F-22s , then pakistani pilots can surely take out F-35s.

long live the JF-17 !!!


.

Ahh the infamous Red Flag kill..

Here is post about that "kill" from another person.

The pilot of the F-22 that was "shot down" had not properly accounted for a "downed" aggressor that had "regenerated" in a favorable position--he had mistakenly believed that this fighter was still out of the game. This aspect of the Red Flag is not realistic in and of itself, but is a practical way to simulate a greater number of threat aircraft and perhaps other aspects of the "fog of war," in which it can be very easy to lose track of what you're doing or end up dead because of rotten luck.

So what should the pilot of the "downed" F-22 learn from this incident that he could apply to real combat? Well, it certainly wouldn't be "Watch out for downed enemy fighters regenerating." Realistically, this was mental practice for managing one's situational awareness under complex, stressful conditions, which will hopefully generally translate to the aspects of real combat that are not easy or possible to accurately simulate in training. At the very least, this is a reminder for F-22 pilots to stay alert and focused, and that's a good thing.

What this does not do, however, is point out any previously unknown flaws or weaknesses in the F-22 itself. If you can somehow get close enough, then you can track it on radar, sure, and if the pilot ignores you because he thinks you're dead for some strange reason, then you might just get yourself a Raptor kill, because the Raptor pilot deserve it.

If you want to discuss it, reply to this thread

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=2976&highlight=F-22+shot

 

[bd popeye]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

recently i came across an article where it was said that during simulating F-16s has shot down the first F-22s.

Simulating...is never ever the same as really performing. I glanced at the article of which you speak. Since we were not there we do not know if the simulating F-16 and F-22 were fully mission cable. Perhaps something was not functioning properly. Or which is common in simulation the F-22 was not permited to use all it's ablity or had to simulate a system being off line(non operational)

my point is that if american F-16s can take out F-22s , then pakistani pilots can surely take out F-35s.

long live the JF-17 !!!

How you make this sort of assumption based on what you read without knowing all the facts is a puzzle to me.

You cannnot assume because plane A beat plane B... that plane A will then beat plane C. The real world does not work like that. Actual aerial combat takes in many, many factors.

 

[tphuang]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

. i agree !!

the standard of training which the pakistani pilot posesses, they can pose a threat to even the F-35s

recently i came across an article where it was said that during simulating F-16s has shot down the first F-22s.

my point is that if american F-16s can take out F-22s , then pakistani pilots can surely take out F-35s.

long live the JF-17 !!!


.

you are very close to getting banned on DT, and you will be banned on SDF too if you don't stop putting posts like this.

As for F-16 and J-10 nose, I can only say J-10 is about the same as J-8F

 

[crobato]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

. i agree !!

the standard of training which the pakistani pilot posesses, they can pose a threat to even the F-35s

recently i came across an article where it was said that during simulating F-16s has shot down the first F-22s.

my point is that if american F-16s can take out F-22s , then pakistani pilots can surely take out F-35s.

long live the JF-17 !!!


.

That sounds a bit ridiculous. Before the F-16 got that kill on the F-22, the F-22 must have "killed" over a hundred F-16s in return.

 

[Chengdu J-10]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

. i agree !!

the standard of training which the pakistani pilot posesses, they can pose a threat to even the F-35s

recently i came across an article where it was said that during simulating F-16s has shot down the first F-22s.

my point is that if american F-16s can take out F-22s , then pakistani pilots can surely take out F-35s.

long live the JF-17 !!!


.

Errr as if. Need facts and info of real combats not simulated ones to give a strong statment. If the F-16 can take out the F-22 then surely all the debate about the unlikelyhood of the J-10 taking down the F-22 is possible. So lets not think in the fairy land. If F-16 can get close enought to the F-22 Im sure by then the F-22 would've spotted them and fired an AMRAAM by then. So even before the F-16 could get close it would be locked on by the F-22.

Back to JF-17 if the prototype 4 was stated to be as 75-80% as manuverable as the F-16 then latest JF-17 would be near par to the F-16. Dunno maybe

 

[Pointblank]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

Errr as if. Need facts and info of real combats not simulated ones to give a strong statment. If the F-16 can take out the F-22 then surely all the debate about the unlikelyhood of the J-10 taking down the F-22 is possible. So lets not think in the fairy land. If F-16 can get close enought to the F-22 Im sure by then the F-22 would've spotted them and fired an AMRAAM by then. So even before the F-16 could get close it would be locked on by the F-22.

Back to JF-17 if the prototype 4 was stated to be as 75-80% as manuverable as the F-16 then latest JF-17 would be near par to the F-16. Dunno maybe

A heavyweight boxer would loose to me if the boxer had his arms tied behind his back. In these Red vs. Blue exercises, often there are some restrictions are in place to 'level the playing field' and as such, some assets would not be allowed to use all of their capabilities.

 

[IDonT]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

Errr as if. Need facts and info of real combats not simulated ones to give a strong statment. If the F-16 can take out the F-22 then surely all the debate about the unlikelyhood of the J-10 taking down the F-22 is possible. So lets not think in the fairy land. If F-16 can get close enought to the F-22 Im sure by then the F-22 would've spotted them and fired an AMRAAM by then. So even before the F-16 could get close it would be locked on by the F-22.

You want facts...

Before the F-22 was ever designed, the USAF did a study on all the air to air victories from WWI to Vietnam and found out that 90 percent of all the kills happened when the guy being shot down did not even know the enemy was there. Dogfight kills, although a very romantic notion of air combat, were a minority and happened when the attacker "messed" up. All the fighter aces always get the majority of their kills from attacks from a position of strength (higher altitude and speed, from the sun, or from an unseen angle) and always get their kill on the first pass, not tight turning dogfights.

The F-22 (or F-23) was designed with this FACT in mind. You have aircraft that allows you to always "attack from the sun" or from an unseen angle and has enough speed to get away and disappear if you messed up your first pass to try again. Most pilots that go against this aircraft describes their sorties like this: take off, get shot down, re generate, get shot down, re fuel, get shot down, regenerate, get shot down, land. Its really frustrating, most of them never even get to see the F-22. They have tried many tactics, including using weight in numbers to defeat it but none have worked.

Now people have heralded the 3 F-22 "kills" at red flag as "proof" that the F-22 is not invincible. The F-22 never was. The fact that only 3 F-22 were shot down in an air exercise where getting 20 percent losses on a single mission is considered a good day is proof that the machine is revolutionary. The F-15, when it first joined red flag against 3rd generation F-4, A-4, and F-8 in the late 70's, never even came close to matching this record; and this aircraft manage to rack a 100+-0 kill ratio.

No self respecting F-22 pilot would ever come close to a dogfight when it can kill you from BVR. No self respecting airforce general will sacrifice 100 air craft for a chance to destroy 1 F-22.

I understand that you want the J-10 or JF-17 to be a good aircraft and they are. I even understand that you want the J-10 or JF-17 to beat the F-22 due to your patriotic feelings and I can't blame you, every one has them. But what you want and what is reality are 2 different things.

 

[Roger604]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

It's logically impossible for an F-22 to score more than 8 kills. It'll simply run out of missiles. That's why these "exercises" are not exactly "truthful".

If you send up 8 drones, the F-22 will be left with no missiles, and simply have to get out of there.

 

[IDonT]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 thread

It's logically impossible for an F-22 to score more than 8 kills. It'll simply run out of missiles. That's why these "exercises" are not exactly "truthful".

If you send up 8 drones, the F-22 will be left with no missiles, and simply have to get out of there.

There is still the good ol fashion gun kills.