J-35 carrier fighter (PLAN) thread

[siegecrossbow]

Has this been shared? A satellite image of the carrier aviation training base.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517778727173861376

View attachment 87590View attachment 87591

 

[Schwerter_]

Has this been shared? A satellite image of the carrier aviation training base.

I believe black and white satellite images of the same airfield featuring the 2 alleged J-XY prototypes have been in circulation for a while, this colored version is a first for me tho, thanks for sharing!

Also I’ve seen arguments from both sides concerning whether these J-XYs are actual prototypes or just full-size models, and personally I’ve yet to see a decisive argument on either side. Just throwing information that I know out here, whatever the case this seems to be good news as the navy is already testing some aspects of the J-XY with regards to carrier operation.

 

[reservior dogs]

That entire livestream was quite informative. It seemed to me that China really rolled a lot of 5 or 6s in how it closed the gap with USN from when it decided on taking the plunge in 2004 to now. I remember reading a former USN officer saying that China had managed compress 100 years of USN carrier op lessons into 10 years. That's clearly an exaggeration, but it gives an idea of how USN views the advancements in Chinese carrier operations since 2012.

1) It got the most recently constructed CV from Soviet Union and paid very little for it. When CV-16 first joined service, I heard a lot of Western analysts calling Admiral K class a terrible design to copy. Well, guess what? Not everyone gets access to decades of US experience in designing Aircraft carriers. The fact that China got Varyag (with its power plant in tact) was a huge coup and they were able to do some small modifications to make it a pretty reasonable entry level carrier. The only other option they had were Spanish shipyard offers of 30k sized carrier back in the 90s. I wouldn't say China took advantage of Ukraine, but it was fortunate that such a ship was available for them to try out.

2) Apparently, there was big discussions going on inside China about whether to build a whole new carrier based on Varyag as the first carrier or modifying Varyag to put it into service. Again, a lot of western analysts said that it made perfect sense for China to put Varyag into service as a training carrier. Even so, it wasn't an obvious choice for PLAN brass, who did not have full knowledge of the difficult of carrier op. it turned out, the choice of modifying Varyag into CV-16 was entirely correct. Putting CV-16 into service sooner allowed them to start training at the sea much sooner than if they had decided to build a new carrier from the get go. And they found that carrier ops is really hard. I think Shilao's podcast said that CV-16 only believed it achieved operational status in 2019 or even more recent than that when it comes to high tempo carrier operations.

3) The decision to build a Type 002 in CV-17 before proceeding to Type 003 looks to be correct too. There is a whole new lesson to be learnt about building a new carrier from scratch that had to be learned before they can proceed to a more complicated design in Type 003. Given how smoothly Type 002/003 projects have progressed, I would say these were correct decisions. Otherwise, they'd still need a Type 003 to test out EMAL catapult.

4) The full indigenization of flankers + availability of T-10K prototype meant they were able to develop J-15s pretty smoothly. I think it's a testament to China/Russia relationship that Russia did not throw a fit at China for not buying Su-33s. As it turned out, Shilao/Yankee have said several times that Su-33 wasn't fully developed as a naval fighter. SAC had to really test and sort through many issues for J-15 to be where it is. If they had chosen to buy Su-33 or was not indigenizing flankers or picked naval J-10, I don't think it would have turned out as well. As things stand, J-15 is a great platform to support J-35.

5) Having SAC first work on J-15 and FC-31 prototype meant they are ideally prepared for J-35.

6) I didn't realize this but, they got extremely lucky with JL-9H. PLAN had not planned or paid for JL-9H development. Someone that was retired went out of his way to suggest GAIC to develop a naval version of JL-9 in case PLAN needed a trainer naval. GAIC found 100 million RMB to do the development (a lot of money for GAIC). And when PLAN realized J-15S two seater development would've cut too much money, they were happy that the much cheaper JL-9H option was available.

7) Somehow, they were able to complete EMAL development/testing almost as the same time as steam catapult, which allowed them to catch up to USN in catapult technology. Even now, Ford class is still struggling with it.

8) GWOT forced very high level of attrition/early retirement on carrier aircraft which forced USN to place very larger orders of Super hornets and very few F-35Cs. As a result, Type 003 and follow on carriers are likely to have a big 5th generation aircraft advantage over its USN counterpart (by pure numbers).

I might be missing a few, but a lot of things have gone right for PLAN.

Thanks for the update. I think all of these decisions that turned out to be correct reflect a great deal of core competence inside the PLA. Contrast this with the many failures of the U.S. Navy. From what I heard, the J-35 will turn out to be a much better platform(After the proper engine is installed) compared to the F-35C. Can you elaborate about what you know on this area?

 

[Blitzo]

Thanks for the update. I think all of these decisions that turned out to be correct reflect a great deal of core competence inside the PLA. Contrast this with the many failures of the U.S. Navy. From what I heard, the J-35 will turn out to be a much better platform(After the proper engine is installed) compared to the F-35C. Can you elaborate about what you know on this area?

Where did you hear that, and on what basis would it be "much better"?

 

[pakje]

I would argue the J-35 program itself is going better than the F-35, but to directly compare the 2 there's not nearly enough information

 

[yungho]

Although the F35B hurt the program in many ways, the capability it gives is enormous. Just on that fact I would argue the FC31 will have a hard time surpassing the F35. The FC31 will also lose out on the economies of scale the F35 benefits from.

 

[4channer]

Thanks for the update. I think all of these decisions that turned out to be correct reflect a great deal of core competence inside the PLA. Contrast this with the many failures of the U.S. Navy. From what I heard, the J-35 will turn out to be a much better platform(After the proper engine is installed) compared to the F-35C. Can you elaborate about what you know on this area?

It definitely will be.

 

[reservior dogs]

Where did you hear that, and on what basis would it be "much better"?

Here is one source, I link it here without supporting the claims of the youtuber. If you understand Cantonese, you can follow along.

The main points he was making,

1. J35 has an empty weight of 11.5 tons, much lower than F-35 empty weight of 15.7 tons.
2. Dual WS-19 provides 22 tons of thrust, higher than F-35 19.5 tons.
This means a higher payload and higher supercruise for the J-35 (he estimates Mach1.3)
3. Using two smaller diameter engines compared to one large one has advantages. He compared F-22 and F-35 and determined that F-22, due to its dual engines, has more reserves and can have a higher acceleration compared to F-35.
4. This is not from the guy, but I did read somewhere the by-pass ratio of a large engine like the F-35 is higher than the J-35. For fighter jets, the lower the by-pass, the higher performance in high speed super sonic region. No?
The J-35 has a flatter and smoother exterior, better for stealth and drag.
He cited encounters between J-20 and F-35 where the J-20 was able to sneak up to the F-35 unnoticed even by the EOTS of the F-35, and infer that there is infrared stealth built into the J-20 which are not in the F-35. He speculated that the J-35 will have the same infrared stealth and be less detectable compared to the F-35.

 

[gelgoog]

The point about all aspect IR stealth might be accurate. Some of the paint schemes in the J-20 look more metallic than the original F-35 paint scheme. I expect the FC-31 to have lower drag coefficient than F-35 because it will be less boxy and more slim because of dual engine.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

Here is one source, I link it here without supporting the claims of the youtuber. If you understand Cantonese, you can follow along.

The main points he was making,

1. J35 has an empty weight of 11.5 tons, much lower than F-35 empty weight of 15.7 tons.
2. Dual WS-19 provides 22 tons of thrust, higher than F-35 19.5 tons.
This means a higher payload and higher supercruise for the J-35 (he estimates Mach1.3)
3. Using two smaller diameter engines compared to one large one has advantages. He compared F-22 and F-35 and determined that F-22, due to its dual engines, has more reserves and can have a higher acceleration compared to F-35.
4. This is not from the guy, but I did read somewhere the by-pass ratio of a large engine like the F-35 is higher than the J-35. For fighter jets, the lower the by-pass, the higher performance in high speed super sonic region. No?
The J-35 has a flatter and smoother exterior, better for stealth and drag.
He cited encounters between J-20 and F-35 where the J-20 was able to sneak up to the F-35 unnoticed even by the EOTS of the F-35, and infer that there is infrared stealth built into the J-20 which are not in the F-35. He speculated that the J-35 will have the same infrared stealth and be less detectable compared to the F-35.

Who's he and what reason do we have to believe he knows what he's talking about?