J-20... The New Generation Fighter

Re: New Generation Fighter

lol the first batch of operational JXX might even be flying with improved ws-10 lol. would be a more like a stealth version of J-11...depending on how urgent the demand is from PLAAF. but initial flight is guaranteed to happen before WS-15 becomes operational unless there is a huge set back the type that would have the head of AVIC fired.

Re: New Generation Fighter

Inst said:

Just have to note that from the information available Chinese engine development is generally behind schedule and not up to par. The WS-15 (or whatever the engine slated for the J-XX is called now) has very high performance targets, but the WS-10 is still not ready for deployment on the J-10 and the JF-17/FC-1 is still using Russian engines.

I don't doubt that it's possible that the Chinese aerospace industry has mastered the turbofan technology for the Chinese third-generation aircraft, but it's unlikely from the information available. We should assume that the J-XX will be on Russian engines unless shown otherwise.

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Actually WS10, WS15 and the domestic version of RD93 were developed by different companies, from different engine cores too. Also the problem WS10 encountered arose from the production side, I won't associate it with the development of WS15 at all.

However, the progress on the enhanced versions of FWS10 might be relevant here since they are likely to benefit from some of the technological breakthroughs aiming for WS15 (mono-crystalline blades for example). It appears these technologies are developed individually by other entities as well.

Re: New Generation Fighter

pla101prc said:

lol the first batch of operational JXX might even be flying with improved ws-10 lol. would be a more like a stealth version of J-11...depending on how urgent the demand is from PLAAF. but initial flight is guaranteed to happen before WS-15 becomes operational unless there is a huge set back the type that would have the head of AVIC fired.

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Here is another question, if they plan to fly the early batches of JXX with improved WS10, does it mean such engine would be designed to fit JXX in the first place. From what I heard, FWS10 is under "improvement" for the sake of J10/11/15 etc. the specifications of which might be wildly different from JXX's, unless it's yet another WS10 varian we are talking about?

The bottom line is, for a FWS10 variant to be fitted on JXX, it must resemble WS15, which is made for JXX, in weight, diameters etc. I doubt Liming would be able to handle that along with other bunch of WA10 variants.

Re: New Generation Fighter

EDIATH said:

Here is another question, if they plan to fly the early batches of JXX with improved WS10, does it mean such engine would be designed to fit JXX in the first place. From what I heard, FWS10 is under "improvement" for the sake of J10/11/15 etc. the specifications of which might be wildly different from JXX's, unless it's yet another WS10 varian we are talking about?

The bottom line is, for a FWS10 variant to be fitted on JXX, it must resemble WS15, which is made for JXX, in weight, diameters etc. I doubt Liming would be able to handle that along with other bunch of WA10 variants.

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I would imagine that the WS-15 will be of similar dimensions to the WS-10 simply because the WS-10 also powers the J-11, and I don't see the J-xx being much bigger or smaller than the J-11.

Re: New Generation Fighter

EDIATH said:

Actually WS10, WS15 and the domestic version of RD93 were developed by different companies, from different engine cores too. Also the problem WS10 encountered arose from the production side, I won't associate it with the development of WS15 at all.

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Ok now thats new to me... I always thought the WS-10, WS-10A, FSW-10 (or whatever you call it) was an AL-31 class engine -

Regarding the WS-15, well there seem to be some confusion. Many of us thought was a T/W=10 17,000kg class "large thrust" turbofan (and has another 8 - 10 years until it sees production) but 70092 recently said WS-15 is indeed a 9500 kgf "medium thrust" engine - and the "large thrust" is not WS-15 but something else..

There is also this (WS-13?) -

Now I am confused

Re: New Generation Fighter

Hyperwarp said:

Ok now thats new to me... I always thought the WS-10, WS-10A, FSW-10 (or whatever you call it) was an AL-31 class engine -

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Regarding the WS-15, well there seem to be some confusion. Many of us thought was a T/W=10 17,000kg class "large thrust" turbofan (and has another 8 - 10 years until it sees production) but 70092 recently said WS-15 is indeed a 9500 kgf "medium thrust" engine -

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and the "large thrust" is not WS-15 but something else..

There is also this (WS-13?) - Link-1

Now I am confused *[qimg]http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/konfus/a015.gif[/qimg] [qimg]http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/konfus/c010.gif[/qimg]

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Do you mean "high thrust turbo fan jet engine" when you mentioned "AL31 class engine"?

Anyways WS10 was developed based on civilian CMF56 engine core, while WS15 was a complete different project, the origin of its engine core still remains a mystery. WS13 on the other hand can only be classified as medium thrust turbo fan, simply the domestic version of RD93 & used on the exported FC1. Considering the role JXX is expected to play in PLAAF, WS15 has to offer higher thrust than WS10, thus a high-thrust class. I can hardly see the reason for them to develop another medium-thrust engine as the matter stands.

As to the status of their developments, there are tons of news about WS10, a little about WS15, and next to nothing about WS13.

To latenlazy:

Not sure how "big" WS15 will be comparing to WS10, but I expect it to be heavier since it needs to provide a great deal more of thrust, 20% perhaps. Think about it this way, F-22 is 50% heavier than F-15C in terms of empty weight, albeit their similar size, is there any chance to fit a F119 on F-15C as well? Will weight distribution be a major hurdle in this case?*

Re: New Generation Fighter

EDIATH said:

Not sure how "big" WS15 will be comparing to WS10, but I expect it to be heavier since it needs to provide a great deal more of thrust, 20% perhaps. Think about it this way, F-22 is 50% heavier than F-15C in terms of empty weight, albeit their similar size, is there any chance to fit a F119 on F-15C as well? Will weight distribution be a major hurdle in this case?*

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The F119 turbofan that powers the F-22 is actually only slightly heavier than the F-15's F119 and only about a foot longer. (Don't know the diameter numbers).

I see weight and dimension only being a problem if the WS-10 is significantly larger than the WS-15, as it wouldn't be able to fit in the airframe. Otherwise, they can always adjust mass and the center of balance using filler weight.

Re: New Generation Fighter

EDIATH said:

Actually WS10, WS15 and the domestic version of RD93 were developed by different companies
.....

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Ooooppsssss.....

My apologies EDIATH

you actually said "WS10, WS15 and the domestic version of RD93" and NOT "WS10, WS15 are the domestic version of RD93"

Not sure what my eyes were seeing..... Guess I browsed too much adult content last night...

Again my apologies ...

Re: New Generation Fighter

latenlazy said:

The F119 turbofan that powers the F-22 is actually only slightly heavier than the F-15's F119 and only about a foot longer. (Don't know the diameter numbers).

I see weight and dimension only being a problem if the WS-10 is significantly larger than the WS-15, as it wouldn't be able to fit in the airframe. Otherwise, they can always adjust mass and the center of balance using filler weight.

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Well you are right about the similarity in size/weight between F119 and F110-229, which is possibly applicable to the WS10/WS15 scenario as well. It would be interesting to see whether JXX's interim engine solution (WS10G or not) comes with goodies like a TVC nozzle and such, and all those subtle implications about nozzle diameters or after-nozzle thrust.*

To hyperwrap: no worries mate, I 'm terribly curious about the status of WS13 too, now that Russian engines have once again become available for FC1.

Re: New Generation Fighter

WS-15 was design to replace Ws-9, according to past article, Xian aircraft co. who exam the engine, claim spey engine was basically late 50's early 60's technology.and they make it clear, there ultimate plan was some sort of "F-404" equivalent.