J-20... The New Generation Fighter

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Centrist

Junior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

Well, according to Song Wencong, the vice-project director of J-XX in CAC.

1, The fighter should get a relatively flat body for better supercruise performance, so it will be thinner than the manned single engine concept, maybe more like anjian.

2, Again, for better supercruise performance, they get no choice but use some delta wing or some wing like the ones installed on F-22.

3, As for canard layout, the front wing will most likely be larger than Anjian, and will be most likely installed at a higher angle upwards for better dog-fight performance.

4,Air intakers are different, the UAV/Concept fighter in Zhuhai airshow install their air intaker blow the body, whilst the one developed in CAC now will most likely arrange their air intaker the same way as F-22/35, etc.

Hey it's nice to meet you, welcome to the forum. Have you heard what kind of engines the plane will use? WS-10A at first? Will they have thrust vectoring? What is the status of the next generation engine?
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: New Generation Fighter

Well, according to Song Wencong, the vice-project director of J-XX in CAC.

1, The fighter should get a relatively flat body for better supercruise performance, so it will be thinner than the manned single engine concept, maybe more like anjian.

2, Again, for better supercruise performance, they get no choice but use some delta wing or some wing like the ones installed on F-22.

3, As for canard layout, the front wing will most likely be larger than Anjian, and will be most likely installed at a higher angle upwards for better dog-fight performance.

4,Air intakers are different, the UAV/Concept fighter in Zhuhai airshow install their air intaker blow the body, whilst the one developed in CAC now will most likely arrange their air intaker the same way as F-22/35, etc.
Given what you said about paralleled canards blended into a leading edges which then blend into the main body, I'm wondering how they'll be able to put the canards at a higher angle?
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

These things are from the mouths of engineers working in CAC, if your Chinese reading is reasonable good, you can go to CJDBY.net, unlike some other internet military-fan chatrooms,this one is very popular because it get some professionals there, including at least two engineers working in CAC and one former engineer from SAC, and several current pilots from airforce, and several engineers works in other departments in China military industry complex.

Officially, General Zhang Zhaozhong openly claimed the maiden flight of J-XX will be around 2010 to 2011 in his TV interview, althrough laterly his TV show get downplayed seriously and the second part of his TV show which is supposed to discuss the details of this aircraft has been totally banned as well as his own personal blog.

Vice-commander of PLAAF also claim the 5th generation fighter will get maiden flight soon and will enter service by 2017-2019, so 2010-2011 is a quite reasonable time for maiden flight.

As for SAC, you get to understand a bit of the Chinese politics to understand why they get the opporunities to mess this project up even through they have lost the competition, quite some of the senior officials in today's China aero industry group are from SAC, so they feel the need to force CAC to share some part of cakes of this big fat project with SAC, sort of warfares, you know.

The job awarded to SAC has nothing to do with the layout or the core design, only some manufactering task since in theory, SAC should get more experience in empolying Ti-based alloys comparing to CAC yet it seems that they screw this up as well and will most likely miss the deadline.

I think SAC also get some structral design work of the bottom of the fighter.

Actually, the PLAAF is very unsatified about SAC's proprosals, and the 5th generation competition is rather one-sided, the SAC's proprosals are pathetic, one is a carbon-copy of F-22, the other is a werid combination of F-22, J-8 with an set of front wings with no gruantee of a capable flight control can be developed on time espeically given SAC's track record.

In contrast, CAC's proprosal is very new and promising:

According to the research paper published in 2001 by CAC's project leader, its layout is an unqiue combination of lifting-bodyed, parrelleled, upwards canard blended into a set of long and large leading edge blended into the main body of the aircraft.

The aircraft would either get no tails or get very small V-tails (~1/10th the size of convential layout fighters), it shows such layout, comparing to the convential ones, will make the fighter become extremely agile even at extreme attack angles and maintain very good supersonic and stealth performance, with TVC, the fighter's manuerves will be in a league of its own.

Since Chinese airforce believe the fight between 5th generation fighters will most likely settled through dog-fights, so they like this design.

So it is highly unlikely that CAC's design will be changed much after SAC get involved in this project.

lol i know which threads you are talkin about i've read them too. but are those guys really credible, the stuff they say is surely sounds convincing (whole bunch of technical stuff that airforce amateur like me never heard about) but more experienced posters have questioned their legitimacy. most ppl would settle at a mix of truth and lies when judging what they have wrote.
but yeah it sure sounds like they have access to some info with the CAC and SAC that we dont have
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Re: New Generation Fighter

Hi 70092,

What you have post is really enlightening, thanks a million for that, however I have some enquiries that I hope you could help me out here. (Sorry, I am an amatuer when it came to hardware, I hope you will pardon me if you find the question stupid).

1) I have always thought that dogfighting is already becoming more and more of a thing of the past? what with the introduction of the BVR missiles like the AMRAAM. Isn't it better to pull the fight as far away as possible and eliminate opposition while they are still far away... I mean, only treat dogfight as the last option.

2) I believe the new J-xx or J-20, or whatever the PLAAF will name it's 5th generation fighter would be the crop of the cream and not much of them will be in service, the bulk of the fighters fleet will make up of J-11B and J-10A or B... these fighters have great dogfight capability. Isn't it better to use the J-XX with its stealth capability to attack and destroy enemy's high valued targets with long range missiles and let the J-11B and J-10A or B do the job of picking out enemy's fighters in close range?
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Re: New Generation Fighter

1) I have always thought that dogfighting is already becoming more and more of a thing of the past? what with the introduction of the BVR missiles like the AMRAAM. Isn't it better to pull the fight as far away as possible and eliminate opposition while they are still far away... I mean, only treat dogfight as the last option.
If both sides have stealth capabilities, that negates some advantages of BVR. I can see why the PLA would want high maneuverability, especially if it sees the J-xx as primarily a counter to other 5th generation fighters.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

if you are fighting over Taiwan strait, you have a greater chance of fighting BVR, there's only so much space.
 

carandol

New Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

Hi 70092,
1) I have always thought that dogfighting is already becoming more and more of a thing of the past? what with the introduction of the BVR missiles like the AMRAAM. Isn't it better to pull the fight as far away as possible and eliminate opposition while they are still far away... I mean, only treat dogfight as the last option.

One item you are forgetting is the rules of engagement both sides are operating under. Sometimes the ROE play the limiting factor and not the sensor and/or weapon kinematic performance.
 

70092

Junior Member
Re: New Generation Fighter

Hey it's nice to meet you, welcome to the forum. Have you heard what kind of engines the plane will use? WS-10A at first? Will they have thrust vectoring? What is the status of the next generation engine?

The engine will most likely be a WS-10 type at first, and laterly on, it may replaced by WS-15.

As for the thrust, well, the theoritical thrust of WS-15 is fine for such fighter:

At a bypass ratio of 0.2, it can deliever a thrust of 152kN

Comparing to F-119:

At a bypass ratio of 0.2, its thrust is 135kN (YF-119)
At a bypass ratio of 0.3, its thrust is 155kN (today's F119).

Since low bypass ratio is critical for supercrusie, I think WS-15 is more than enough for a supercruise task (for instance, F-135 is not suitable for supercruise even through it get a much higher thrust comparing to F119, since it's bypass ratio is too high which means the performance of the engine at supersonic speed will be degraded significantly thus not sufficient power).

But the performance of WS-15 is only in theory, at the moment they are still in R&D (I think they get two or so fully-developed engines under trial test now).

However we all know there are so many possibility for an aircraft engine, it can be the case you find your designs work fine for 99% of the time, and only enter the final stage you find there is a serious flaw you can not fix and ruin your design totally.

So I would not say WS-15 can be finished soon, I think the airforce are prepared for the early batches of J-XX enter services will come up with some less powered engines, it maybe reduce the supercrusie performance of the fighter.
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
Re: New Generation Fighter

Not sure if this is legit.

[qimg]http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9431/2713826809e91df1c863115.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9858/27118255f714229a38abddc.jpg[/qimg]

I think that one of the Initial X-35 designs. check the images below

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