J-20... The New Generation Fighter

Asymptote said:

You guys don't find it odd that J-20's body is as smooth as silk? Its so unlike any production prototype fighters I have seen in the past.

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It's weird that it's painted?

Remember when they use to declare low quality worksmanship because you can see the rivets on Chinese fighters?

The French seem to be claiming it's a rip-off of the Typhoon.

SAAB's designs

Asymptote said:

Its not just the Russians, the Americans, the Europeans, practically everyone goes through the same process of aircraft design (or any type of design - its standard design process / evolution). The americans call it "lineage", where a new product is the result of hundreds of prototypes, mock ups and aggregation of previous generation's design. The F-22 itself was the result of F-119/B-2 stealth tech, with decades of experiences designing various previous generation fighters that finally came to fruition in F-22. The F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18, are all part of that lineage. (And the extent to which american explore the airframe design + their XF series of experimental airframes). And even when they finally nail down the specification, they still put up a competitive tendering process, with Lockheed Martin/Boeing pitted against Northrop/McDonnell Douglas - with 2 VERY different designs, with both designs very mature and production capable.

The J-20 on the other hand, seems to be evoluted out of J-10 and J-11B, with both platform still very new and "shaky" (with lots of kinks and problems still needs to be work through / find out after decade of use).

If you look at the development of F-22, it was build upon decades of previous generation design (F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18) it took almost 25 years from beginning of 1980's ATX program until it enter service in 2005, with several concurrent developments such as F-119/B-2 that aided to its design in the final product.

The Russian pretty much were the same, they developed from decades of previous generation experience, from Mig-29/Su-27/Su-30/Su-35/Mig-35/ Su-37 until they begin the Mig 1.42/1.44, and the horizontal development of Su-47 (composite body, radical airframe) until they finally settle on the PAK-FA.

Design just doesn't come about suddenly, it has to be built on SOLID GROUND.

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OK, OK, PAK-FA is so much more advanced than J-20, just keep telling that to yourself and eventually you may even believe your own words.

Have a nice dream and don't waste our time, the topic is for J-20 discussion, not J-20 vs. whatever 5th generation wanna-be topic.

Re: J-20... Mutual Backyard Protection concept

NOTE:
This is not a flaming post to any nation or any group.
I do not mean to offend anyone. I am just simply stating the fact.
This will be my only post on the issue of "China_is_copying_Russia_Weapon".
I will not reply with back and forth arguments.
In order not derail this thread, please PM me if you would like to discuss it further.


Firstly, let's define the terms:
Mouse = F-22 = USA
Cat (various colours) = J-20

To those who will be offended by this post -- please take a deep breath and think again WISELY.
Which one is way_more_important than the other --- (Short_Term_Personal_Glory) vs. (Long_Term_National_Security)??

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China and Russia are very close allies (working to extend it toward eternity).
Russia is protecting China backyard and China is protecting Russia backyard FOREVER.
Thank the Above Power that China Central Leadership and Russian Leadership are preaching and applying the Mutual Backyard Protection concept above.

There are certain nations on Earth who hate to see this close alliance between China and Russia.
These certain nations on Earth (pro Mouse group) are dying to see the breakup of the close alliance and wishing that China and Russia are bloodily hammering each other heads.

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Unfortunately, some Chinese posters do not have the wisdom to apply the concept of
(Mutual Backyard Protection) in their daily behaviour.

The reactions of some Chinese posters are truly mind boggling.
Why are some Chinese posters sacrificing (Long_Term_National_Security) for the benefit of (Short_Term_Personal_Glory)??

Why are so many people can be so easily provoked by the comments (coming from the pro Mouse group --- who is pretending to be pro Russian) that J-20 is a copy of MIG 1.44??

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When hearing and reading such comment (J-20 is a copy of MIG 1.44), I personally would react these way:

1) I will always assume the comments are coming from (the pro Mouse group -- who is pretending to be pro Russian) and their hidden agenda are to flame hatred between China and Russia.

2) I will apply Chairman Deng Xiao Ping motto: (It does not matter if the Cat is brown or purple, as long as the Cat can destroy the Mouse, then it is a wonderful Cat)

3) If anyone claim Cat is copy of MIG 1.44, -- then so what -- if it is a copy??
I will say Thank You So Much to our close ally Russia for teaching us the basic tech.
China will always be grateful to Russia for helping China when all (pro Mouse nations) are squeezing China by refusing to sell China the military tech to this day.

4) We will not compete with Russia and sell these weapon to the world.
China can generate export income from so many other non military products.
China will only barter these weapon with other nation for political purpose only.


That is all my points.

EDIT:
Nevermind. Other posts basically stated what I wanted to say.

Asymptote said:

Its not just the Russians, the Americans, the Europeans, practically everyone goes through the same process of aircraft design (or any type of design - its standard design process / evolution). The americans call it "lineage", where a new product is the result of hundreds of prototypes, mock ups and aggregation of previous generation's design. The F-22 itself was the result of F-119/B-2 stealth tech, with decades of experiences designing various previous generation fighters that finally came to fruition in F-22. The F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18, are all part of that lineage. (And the extent to which american explore the airframe design + their XF series of experimental airframes). And even when they finally nail down the specification, they still put up a competitive tendering process, with Lockheed Martin/Boeing pitted against Northrop/McDonnell Douglas - with 2 VERY different designs, with both designs very mature and production capable.

The J-20 on the other hand, seems to be evoluted out of J-10 and J-11B, with both platform still very new and "shaky" (with lots of kinks and problems still needs to be work through / find out after decade of use).

If you look at the development of F-22, it was build upon decades of previous generation design (F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18) it took almost 25 years from beginning of 1980's ATX program until it enter service in 2005, with several concurrent developments such as F-119/B-2 that aided to its design in the final product.

The Russian pretty much were the same, they developed from decades of previous generation experience, from Mig-29/Su-27/Su-30/Su-35/Mig-35/ Su-37 until they begin the Mig 1.42/1.44, and the horizontal development of Su-47 (composite body, radical airframe) until they finally settle on the PAK-FA.

Design just doesn't come about suddenly, it has to be built on SOLID GROUND.

Click to expand...

So only US and Russia can design stealth aircraft? Your argument makes no sense.

nameless said:

J10, Su27 and many other aircraft all have ventral fins, its dishonest to somehow claim that Mig 1.42 was the first or the only one.
And the mig 1.42 does not have an "all moving tailplane" just a conventional tail that is slightly canted. J20's tail is much more similar to FAK-FA and F117. Again Mig 1.42 was not the first to have canted tail.

IMO They ran out of money so they has to rely on the stealthified Su27 design.

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My apology, I mistaken F-117 / PAK-FA's all moving tailplane for Mig 1.44's. I thought I have seen that somewhere...

SNSD said:

LOL! This time each day for the last 3 days! Lets hope our anxieties gets relieved today!

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Nada again. Let's see if it'd be 11th as speculated.

nameless said:

So only US and Russia can design stealth aircraft? Your argument makes no sense.

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No, I am not saying that, trust me.
What I am saying is, I felt its a little premature to show off the piece.

Allow me elaborate. When I look at design, I look at the lineage, and when you look at lineage, you look at the most variants a design can offer - And currently J-10/J-11B seems still fresh off the production/under production line, with almost no variants to speak of. The last fighter that seems to me to be very well understood by the Chinese aviation industry seems to be the J-7 and J-8, with almost hundreds of variations. It shows the level of confidence and understanding in modifying the design because of the thorough understanding and knowledge gain in those design.

Just imagine if you design something, let's say a car, and because its a new design, you are just happy it "works" (magic!) and is afraid modifying it will result in failure - and that's normal in almost every field of engineering/design process. And it took a long time until designers thoroughly understood the principles of the design, that they start really tearing it apart again, examine every parts and redesign every part to have next generation design. Along the way, you have hundreds of modification/variation of original design. And this usually starts from the outside - the shell of the design - the body/structure frame of the design. So the car usually get a different look first, while the engines and the innards get change much much later.