J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
The J20 is a continuation and refinement of the aerodynamic concepts developed on the J10.

The main reason ventricle fins are added to a design is to improve directional stability, especially at high speed, and could allow for smaller vertical tails as a result.

I could be wrong, but I also believe that the ventricle fins on the J10 and J20 can aid in the high alpha handling of the plane.

A canard-delta generally has better nose pointing ability than a conventional layout design because with canards, you are directly pushing the nose of the plane instead of pushing the entire plane to turn the nose - the movement arm is much shorter, thus the same applied force would yield a far greater turning force, with mass the same, greater force = more velocity => faster nose turning. Basic physics.

However, if your tail start sliding out, the situation is reverse, thus canards are not as efficient in controlling the back end of a plane compared to a conventional layout design. This would be exacerbated in high alpha maneuvers, when the wing and fuselage of the fighter would block airflow to much, if not all of the vertical tails, thus removing the primary means to control directional stability on a tailless canard-delta in level flight.

This is a very preliminary assessment, and may be affected by many other factors I do not know about, but on the face of it, I would suspect that the J10 would have better sustained turning and energy conservation properties compared to the likes of the Typhoon or Rafale that does not have ventricle fins. The flip side would be that the Eurocanards should have the edge in instantaneous turning capabilities.

I would also expect the J20 to have similar good high-alpha maneuverability and controllability, which would incidentally, be in line with the very rudimentary assessment some model makes reached when they built a RC J20 model.

As has already been pointed out, the designers at CAC did not miss the opportunity to make additional use of the ventricle fins, and have cleverly worked their design so that the ventricle fins block direct line of sight to the engine nozzles from the side-on aspect of the J20, thus allowing it to have a far bigger stealthy aspect even with conventional engine nozzles.

Looking at the picture you quoted, would it make any difference what the actual shape of the engine nozzles are from that angle?

I am unfamiliar with the effect the ventricle fins might have on drag. Would it be higher because there are more fins, or lower because the reduction in size possible to the vertical tails because of the addition of the ventricle fins is larger than the additional drag created by the extra fins?

My gut tells me that the ventricle fins and smaller vertical fins would allow for lower drag, both because the smaller fins would benefit from the low drag shock cone effect (is that what it's called?) caused by the nose and body of the plane, and also be because having fins on both the top and bottom of the plane makes for a much more even distribution of drag. With only vertical tails, all the drag would be on the top of the plane. This would push the nose up, and force the FBW to pitch the plane's nose down to maintain level flight, which causes more drag.

With fins top and bottom, some of the nose-up force is cancelled out by the drag on the ventricle fins pulling the nose down. This would this require less of a pitch-down movement from the other control surfaces and thus would help to reduce drag. But, once again it's all down to the sizes of the different forces. If the combined drag from top and down fins is greater than vertical fins and pitch-down, ventricle fins are more draggy and less if the situation was reversed. Maybe the only way to know for sure is to stick different designs in a wind tunnels dn test them out. But on the face of it, I think the J20 is less draggy for the ventricle fines.

That's my understanding of it anyways. Maybe someone more familiar with drag can help me out there if I got anything wrong.

Wolfie, you get a solid B+ here, with some extra credit for explaining your work and openess to the truth at the end, it is indeed for directional stability at high alpha, and certainly improves the same throughout the envelope, from the low end to the top end, like feathers on an arrow there is always a drag penalty, but sound flight characteristics are worth the price of admission, and as Dr. Song stated, he wanted the J-20 to be recoverable in the event of nozzle failure, when they install TVC.
 

Quickie

Colonel
I may have posted this video here some time back. The video explains the reason why the J-20 tail fins are placed so far aft. That's also the same reason (relating to unblocked airflow) why the ventral fins are more effective than the vertical tail stabilizer (at the conventional position) at high alpha.

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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
The J20 is a continuation and refinement of the aerodynamic concepts developed on the J10.

The main reason ventricle fins are added to a design is to improve directional stability, especially at high speed, and could allow for smaller vertical tails as a result.

I could be wrong, but I also believe that the ventricle fins on the J10 and J20 can aid in the high alpha handling of the plane.

A canard-delta generally has better nose pointing ability than a conventional layout design because with canards, you are directly pushing the nose of the plane instead of pushing the entire plane to turn the nose - the movement arm is much shorter, thus the same applied force would yield a far greater turning force, with mass the same, greater force = more velocity => faster nose turning. Basic physics.

However, if your tail start sliding out, the situation is reverse, thus canards are not as efficient in controlling the back end of a plane compared to a conventional layout design. This would be exacerbated in high alpha maneuvers, when the wing and fuselage of the fighter would block airflow to much, if not all of the vertical tails, thus removing the primary means to control directional stability on a tailless canard-delta in level flight.

This is a very preliminary assessment, and may be affected by many other factors I do not know about, but on the face of it, I would suspect that the J10 would have better sustained turning and energy conservation properties compared to the likes of the Typhoon or Rafale that does not have ventricle fins. The flip side would be that the Eurocanards should have the edge in instantaneous turning capabilities.

I would also expect the J20 to have similar good high-alpha maneuverability and controllability, which would incidentally, be in line with the very rudimentary assessment some model makes reached when they built a RC J20 model.

As has already been pointed out, the designers at CAC did not miss the opportunity to make additional use of the ventricle fins, and have cleverly worked their design so that the ventricle fins block direct line of sight to the engine nozzles from the side-on aspect of the J20, thus allowing it to have a far bigger stealthy aspect even with conventional engine nozzles.

Looking at the picture you quoted, would it make any difference what the actual shape of the engine nozzles are from that angle?

I am unfamiliar with the effect the ventricle fins might have on drag. Would it be higher because there are more fins, or lower because the reduction in size possible to the vertical tails because of the addition of the ventricle fins is larger than the additional drag created by the extra fins?

My gut tells me that the ventricle fins and smaller vertical fins would allow for lower drag, both because the smaller fins would benefit from the low drag shock cone effect (is that what it's called?) caused by the nose and body of the plane, and also be because having fins on both the top and bottom of the plane makes for a much more even distribution of drag. With only vertical tails, all the drag would be on the top of the plane. This would push the nose up, and force the FBW to pitch the plane's nose down to maintain level flight, which causes more drag.

With fins top and bottom, some of the nose-up force is cancelled out by the drag on the ventricle fins pulling the nose down. This would this require less of a pitch-down movement from the other control surfaces and thus would help to reduce drag. But, once again it's all down to the sizes of the different forces. If the combined drag from top and down fins is greater than vertical fins and pitch-down, ventricle fins are more draggy and less if the situation was reversed. Maybe the only way to know for sure is to stick different designs in a wind tunnels dn test them out. But on the face of it, I think the J20 is less draggy for the ventricle fines.

That's my understanding of it anyways. Maybe someone more familiar with drag can help me out there if I got anything wrong.

the instantaneous turn rate=max lift coefficient sustained turn rate=max lift minus drag plus thrust, when thrust equals drag higher sustained turn rate


Canards do not increase or decrease turn rate.

canards are only use to allow for some types wings to increase lift and reduce wing area or increae wing swept angle.


So without actual manual data you can not know the J-10 is better than Eurofighter.


J-20 uses ventral fins because the small dorsal fins are not enough to control laterally the jet and to avoid being blanketed by the fuselage, they are complementing the dorsal fins, but for stealth ventral fins are against stealth, they increase diffraction and add reflecting surface for ground based radars, F-22 avoids them for a reason.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I may have posted this video here some time back. The video explains the reason why the J-20 tail fins are placed so far aft. That's also the same reason (relating to unblocked airflow) why the ventral fins are more effective than the vertical tail stabilizer (at the conventional position) at high alpha.


Quickie while I have watched this video before, and love the RCPowers models and the guys and girl, and many of their observations are accurate and its possible, that at some speeds, and in some regimes the RCPowers J-20 may and I emphasis "may" accurately replicate "some" of the J-20 flight characteristics, this is in NO way an accurate scale model. It is a very lightly constructed, extremely powerfull, and if I'm not mistaken "gyro stabilised" easy to fly toy aircraft. To accurately predict actual aircraft behavior, this toy aircraft would need to display the same power to weight ratio, and have all the controls, control throws, weight and balance, flight control system, etc. etc. etc., accurately replicate the full size J-20. So while I almost always agree with your assessments and aerodynamic accumen, this video in no way accurately predicts the real world flight dynamics of the J-20. That would take a professionally designed and manufactured scale aircraft that might actually exceed the expense of the full scale aircraft, not saying that certain flight characteristics may not be replicated with R/C models, but that the RC Powers J-20 model is not likely to accurately replicate the flight characteristics of the full scale aircraft. Respectfully Air Force Brat
 

Quickie

Colonel
Quickie while I have watched this video before, and love the RCPowers models and the guys and girl, and many of their observations are accurate and its possible, that at some speeds, and in some regimes the RCPowers J-20 may and I emphasis "may" accurately replicate "some" of the J-20 flight characteristics, this is in NO way an accurate scale model. It is a very lightly constructed, extremely powerfull, and if I'm not mistaken "gyro stabilised" easy to fly toy aircraft. To accurately predict actual aircraft behavior, this toy aircraft would need to display the same power to weight ratio, and have all the controls, control throws, weight and balance, flight control system, etc. etc. etc., accurately replicate the full size J-20. So while I almost always agree with your assessments and aerodynamic accumen, this video in no way accurately predicts the real world flight dynamics of the J-20. That would take a professionally designed and manufactured scale aircraft that might actually exceed the expense of the full scale aircraft, not saying that certain flight characteristics may not be replicated with R/C models, but that the RC Powers J-20 model is not likely to accurately replicate the flight characteristics of the full scale aircraft. Respectfully Air Force Brat

Yes I did notice that the J-20 RC model is not an accurate replication of the J-20. The reason I posted the video is that it helps to explain certain concepts relating to the blocking of airflows and how these problems are solved or minimized.
 
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paintgun

Senior Member
butthurt central forum still insists J-20 is a Mig-31 class aircraft

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FQP9h.jpg

JH48g.jpg
 

kyanges

Junior Member
Hey, Photoshop.

Let me try. I'll only change the two biggest components of the F-22 that give it the appearance of shortness: The raised cockpit, and the large vertical stabilizers.

Move the cockpit down a bit, and the stabs back...

Hmmm...

VEyQg.gif



Awww, the F-22 looks super long now too... :( .
 
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