J-20... The New Generation Fighter III

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no_name

Colonel
During takeoff, for example, the FBW will maintain the elevon and leading edge slat at a set fixed position...

I think it is the job of the pilot to select takeoff configurations and the FBW works on top of that and other pilot inputs such as joystick position.

In other words the FBW corrects what it thinks is any deviation from the desired outcome based on pilot inputs. It does not try to correct the pilot's decisions/inputs, but any extra anomaly on top of that.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
About the mysterious flame... It happens right after the video edit transition which covers up a small door that opens before the flame shoots out. On the video after that Siegecrossbow posted (#1750) about at the 4:45 min mark you can see the little door open and soon after the flame shoots out but not as pronounced as on the video before. Then about at the 5:35 mark, a man goes over and does something in that area and the door closes. Is it some clearing of excess fuel at startup because that man crouches down near it and I wouldn't want to be there if that flame shoots out again.
 

yfan

Just Hatched
Registered Member
I am very curious about what's happened. It seems that several workers put a plate back to seal the opening afterward. Have you guys noticed that? They worked for several minutes.
 

Quickie

Colonel
I get your point completely, and I explained it doesn't work that way. FBW has to be transparent to the pilot, and your assumption that the pilot gets to select takeoff, cruise, and landing mode violates that transparency. How the FBW behaves at different stages of flight is the responsibility of the designers, not the pilot, and the designers have to work in the confine of sensor data that is available to the FBW.


It doesn't work that way. The purpose of FBW is to counteract disturbances. If that means the flight control surfaces move slightly during aircraft take off, then so be it. As for drag, its effects is negligible in comparison the rolling friction from landing gears.

Once again, the FBW system cannot differentiate between undulating movements caused by uneven runway surface and aerodynamic disturbances. Thus the FBW will correct disturbance regardless of origin, leading to the observed slight movement in control surfaces in respond uneven ground. This observation shows your idea of how FBW works is a flawed one, as if the FBW doesn't respond the disturbances due to uneven ground, we wouldn't have observed the movement in flight control surfaces such as canards.

It's a flawed FBW system if it will counteract any upward momentum of the aircraft, irrespective of the condition leading to the upward momentum. This will invariably lead to lost of lift and a waste of energy used in counteracting the upward momentum that was originally generated by for example the runway surface (including that of a ski jump) or a upward air draft. In the former case, for example, it can just be as simple as a flip of the switch to tell the FBW that the aircraft is taking off and that it shouldn't counteract any useful upward momentum whether it's due the runway surface, an upward air draft at the surface of the runway or a ski jump.

During level flight, it should be quite easy for the FBW to determine whether the change in vertical momemtum is due to air pressure changes (as opposed to an upward air draft or a decrease in engine power), in which case it's probably more efficient for the FBW to try to continue maintaining a level flight by adjusting its control surfaces. In the case of an increase in air pressure, decreasing the lift of the wing comes with the benefit of reducing air drag. In the case of a decrease in air pressure, similar beneficial outcome can also be seen, but the same cannot be said in other cases, in particular during take off as explained earlier
 
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Engineer

Major
It's a flawed FBW system if it will counteract any upward momentum of the aircraft irrespective of the condition leading to the upward momentum.
FBW isn't counteracting upward momentum; it is responding to upward acceleration. And yes, FBW responds to upward acceleration regardless of condition because the accelerometers sense acceleration regardless of what caused that acceleration. That's exactly how FBW works.

This will invariably lead to lost of lift and a waste of energy used in counteracting the upward momentum that was originally generated by for example the runway surface (including that of a ski jump) or a upward air draft.
Slight movement in control surfaces isn't going to cause more drag than the wheels of the aircraft. We have seen from videos of J-10 and J-20 that the canards do indeed move in response to uneven ground, so your assumption that this doesn't happen is contradicted by video evidence. The FBW is only responding to what it thinks as aerodynamic disturbances.

In the former case, for example, it can just be as simple as a flip of the switch to tell the FBW that the aircraft is taking off and that it shouldn't counteract any useful upward momentum whether it's due the runway surface, an upward air draft at the surface of the runway or a ski jump.
Except it's not that simple, not to mention flawed. It's flawed because FBW has to be transparent to the pilot - that the pilot cannot notice the presence of FBW through the control eventhough he knows it exists. As I have pointed out already, adding a switch violates that transparency. Furthermore, the determination of how FBW behaves is a responsability of the designer, not the pilot. What do you not understand here that needs clarification?

It's not simple because when the aircraft is taking off, it is still moving in air. So, FBW not only have to work after the aircraft took off, but also have to work while the aircraft is still on the ground. Your idea of forcing the control surfaces to be fixed (ie. by switching off the FBW) while the aircraft is taking off means the pilot would never be able to take off because the elevators are fixed.

Finally, it's not momentum that FBW is responding to; it's acceleration. FBW is also not counteracting "upward air draft"; not to mention that there is no sensor to detect upward air draft. The FBW is correcting changes to aircraft velocities (u,v,w) and angular rates (p,q,r) caused by air disturbances.

During level flight, it should be quite easy for the FBW to determine whether the change in vertical momemtum is due to air pressure changes (as opposed to an upward air draft or a decrease in engine power), in which case it's probably more efficient for the FBW to try to continue maintaining a level flight by adjusting its control surfaces. In the case of an increase in air pressure, decreasing the lift of the wing comes with the benefit of reducing air drag. In the case of a decrease in air pressure, similar beneficial outcome can also be seen...
Maintaining altitude is the job of the autopilot, which works through the FBW system with FBW system having the ultimate authority. FBW responds to acceleration, while air pressure and airspeed are used in determining how forceful the response should be.

...but the same cannot be said in other cases, in particular during take off as explained earlier.
Acceleration is acceleration, regardless of whether it is generated in the air or in the ground. The FBW responds to acceleration, and yes, it occurs on the ground while the aircraft is taking off as well. We have seen J-10 and J-20 canards move in response to uneven ground. Your assumption of how FBW works is purely based on speculation. Why don't you read up on it instead of arguing on a subject which you don't know?
 
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Quickie

Colonel
FBW isn't counteracting upward momentum; it is responding to upward acceleration. And yes, FBW responds to upward acceleration regardless of condition because the accelerometers sense acceleration regardless of what caused that acceleration. That's exactly how FBW works.


Slight movement in control surfaces isn't going to cause more drag than the wheels of the aircraft. We have seen from videos of J-10 and J-20 that the canards do indeed move in response to uneven ground, so your assumption that this doesn't happen is contradicted by video evidence. The FBW is only responding to what it thinks as aerodynamic disturbances.


Except it's not that simple, not to mention flawed. It's flawed because FBW has to be transparent to the pilot - that the pilot cannot notice the presence of FBW through the control eventhough he knows it exists. As I have pointed out already, adding a switch violates that transparency. Furthermore, the determination of how FBW behaves is a responsability of the designer, not the pilot. What do you not understand here that needs clarification?

It's not simple because when the aircraft is taking off, it is still moving in air. So, FBW not only have to work after the aircraft took off, but also have to work while the aircraft is still on the ground. Your idea of forcing the control surfaces to be fixed (ie. by switching off the FBW) while the aircraft is taking off means the pilot would never be able to take off because the elevators are fixed.

Finally, it's not momentum that FBW is responding to; it's acceleration. FBW is also not counteracting "upward air draft"; not to mention that there is no sensor to detect upward air draft. The FBW is correcting changes to aircraft velocities (u,v,w) and angular rates (p,q,r) caused by air disturbances.


Maintaining altitude is the job of the autopilot, which works through the FBW system with FBW system having the ultimate authority. FBW responds to acceleration, while air pressure and airspeed are used in determining how forceful the response should be.


Acceleration is acceleration, regardless of whether it is generated in the air or in the ground. The FBW responds to acceleration, and yes, it occurs on the ground while the aircraft is taking off as well. We have seen J-10 and J-20 canards move in response to uneven ground. Your assumption of how FBW works is purely based on speculation. Why don't you read up on it instead of arguing on a subject which you don't know?

So you think you know so much about this FBW subject? I don't think so because of the way you so easily misses the points I was trying to make. I don't have so much time to read through and reply to such a long reply. But briefly, I stand by my explanation why the FBW control system responds differently to different conditions during takeoff, landing, level flight and other flight conditions. (I never said the FBW is switched off during takeoff, just that it responds differently from other flight condition!)

Btw, I was not discussing how the FBW sensors work, no brainer here, and the movements you see in the canards and stabilizers during takeoff has nothing to do with responding to the undulating movement of the aircraft, but it has to do with the control of the pitching of the aircraft from the horizontal position right through to the higher AOA at takeoff. And also, the undulating surfaces can also be seen as many small ski jumps (albeit at very small angles), so according to your contention, the FBW will counteract the momentum/lift force caused by this mini ski jumps (and by extension the carrier ski jump too) just to maintain a level flight path parallel to the ground, right through to the noseup and liftoff? Isn't this a very inefficient use of engine power and also reduces the lifting power of the aircraft considerably? I think I have enough of this.
 
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Engineer

Major
So you think you know so much about this FBW subject?
Yes. Absolutely yes. If you want to explore the mathematical intricacy behind FBW system, I can also provide an introduction.

I don't think so because of the way you so easily misses the points I was trying to make. I don't have so much time to read through and reply to such a long reply. But briefly, I stand by my explanation why the FBW control system responds differently to different conditions during takeoff, landing, level flight and other flight conditions. (I never said the FBW is switched off during takeoff, just that it responds differently from other flight condition!)
Projecting much?

I did not miss the points you've made. In fact, I pointed them out one-by-one and explained why your idea of FBW is not how FBW actually functions. I explained as carefully as possible why your assumptions don't work. Your ignoring of what I've said and insistence that your idea is the right one does not make me missed your point. Like I have said, I encourage you to go read upon this subject.

Btw, I was not discussing how the FBW sensors work, no brainer here...
FBW can only work within the confine of data provided by the sensors. Hence, when the Inertial Measurement Units cannot distinguish between acceleration by air or ground, then the FBW does not know whether the aircraft is in takeoff mode or already in the air. Air data sensors cannot provide this information either, as different airport has different altitude and you cannot depend on air pressure (which is dynamic) to determine if the aircraft is taking off.

... and the movements you see in the canards and stabilizers during takeoff has nothing to do with responding to the undulating movement of the aircraft, but it has to do with the control of the pitching of the aircraft from the horizontal position right through the higher AOA at takeoff. And also, the undulating surfaces can also be seen as many small ski jumps (albeit at very small angles), so according to your contention, the FBW will counteract the momentum/lift force caused by this mini ski jumps (and by extension the carrier ski jump too) just to maintain a level flight path parallel to the ground, right through the noseup and liftoff? Isn't this a very inefficient use of engine power and also reduces the lifting power of the aircraft considerably? I think have enough of this.
No. You keep on saying I claim FBW counteracts momentum, yet I have corrected you time and time again that FBW responds to acceleration, and that the FBW thinks it is responding to air disturbance when it rolls along uneven surface on the ground. At no time did I claim that the FBW is tasked to force the aircraft to be level if the aircraft reaches an incline, if that's what you are insinuating me to be saying. I specifically pointed out in my reply to delft that responses from the FBW while the aircraft is on the ground would be the same responses as if the aircraft is flying at stall speed. Perhaps you should make sure you grasp people's points before accusing others of missing yours.

And how can you expect me to not treat you as not knowledgeable in the subject if you can't even differentiate between momentum (kg m/s), acceleration (m/s2) and force (kg m/s2)?
 
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