J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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latenlazy

Brigadier
J-20 has smaller vertical dorsal tail than the F-22:true
the F-22 has no ventral tails while the J-20 does:true
the J-20 vertical dorsal tails and ventral tails total area is close to the F-22`s vertical tail area:true
then it can not have much less drag.
Fallacy of false equivalence. You can't make a claim that so and so features balance out ergo they have the same qualities, especially when that quality you are trying to discern is not founded on the premise of parts, but the whole. 1) Drag is not purely determined by the surface areas of the feature, but also sweep, and boundary layer interaction from other parts of the airplane. 2) Overall drag is determined by 3 dimensional interaction of air over the entire plane, not just its parts. You're analyzing 2D features to determine a 3D outcome.

does the J-20 have a longer fuselage and larger cross section than the F-22?:yes it does
Longer fuselage? We can probably say so with some certainty. Larger cross section? You'd have to convince us by taking a proper scaling of the aircraft's length, find the ratio of cross section to length, and give us a precise measurement to have any claim that's reasonably accurate. Putting them together in a split image without respect for the right scaling is not convincing. Furthermore, you're going with a frontal cross section, but the cross section changes along the length of the plane. It's a poor way to back up any claim about volume and mass.
does the F-22 and J-20`s cross sections have similar size and shape? :yes they do
Similar=/=Same. An isosceles and equilateral triangle look similar. Will they necessarily have the same side length:area ratios? No.

was the F-22 designed using super computers?: yes it was

Is it possible the F-22 has a design more optimized to the air dominance role?: yes it is possible

conclusion: it is more likely the J-20 is designed as an interceptor and strike aircraft that will use HMS and advanced missiles in a similar fashion to the F-35 and not to the F-22.
it will be less stealthy due to canards and size than the F-35 but will probably carry much more ordenance and longer range missiles than the F-35

Was the J-20 designed using a super computer? Yes it was.

Is it possible the J-20 has a design more optimized to the air dominance role?: yes it is possible

conclusion: it is more likely the J-20 is designed towards an air dominance role.

See what I just did there? You haven't backed your claim as to why your statements should logically lead to your conclusions that the F-22 fits one role while the J-20 fits another. Furthermore, you have not asserted an argument as to what properties make for an air dominance role. Finally, nothing you have said about the F-22 has indicated anything that categorically relegates the J-20 to a deferring role.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
my assesment is not baised, i use aerodynamics and simple laws, the J-20 is not a F-22 type aircraft unless it can have engines of 19000kg of thrust with thrust vectoring, it is for sure heavier and much bigger and bigger than 20 meters around 21 without probe.
with the current technology, it is more likely the J-20 is a F-35 type aircraft rather than a F-22, using AAM like the AIM-9X, the J-20 can have the F-35 ability to fight but carrying more weapons sacrificing stealth a bit.

I'm not saying your argument is biased. I'm saying it's ill informed. Quite simply, making any conclusion to those reaches is ill informed. Simple laws of aerodynamics do not an accurate assessment of performance make. That's why they're simple aerodynamics.

The J-20 is not an F-22 type aircraft, but the F-22 is not the only design that can fit the air dominance role. It's like saying a lion is fitted for the role of a top predator, and all other animals that don't look like a lion can't be top predators.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
In my opinion it is a F-35 type aircraft, just bigger because china lacks still engines with a rate of 17000 or 18000kg of thrust, thus they needed to design a twin engine that could carry enough fuel and weapons on a LO fuselage.
They added canards to add agility.
One of the findings of the F-35 design process is canard increase pitch control and AoA handling but do not give better drag neither at supersonic speeds neither at low speeds, by using relaxed stability the F-35 will achieve equal drag levels.
The F-35 wing type is rather conventional, so adding a canard would have added extra agility, but having HMS and AAMs like the AIM-9X plus excellent avionics the F-35 did not need canards, canards sacrifice stealth due to trimming and position, thus they went along for a simple back tailed design.
Your arguments about the overall effect of the canard would make sense ceterus paribus (all else being held equal). However, the J-20 has a vastly different shape, so the effects of the canards to the overall airframe, and the overall outcome, will be different. Using features on one design to make an assessment about those features contributions on another does not go anywhere logically.

China i do not think it has now a 17000kg engine and much less a 18000kg engine then canards with RAM and a low drag delta wing made sense.
WS-15 is still being developed.

Sorry, can someone combine my posts? ><;
 

Engineer

Major
Your statement is not correct...
SR-71's top speed -- Mach 3.3
F-22's top speed -- Mach 2.25

SR-71's length -- 32.74m
F-22's length -- 18.90m

SR-71 faster than F-22? Check. SR-71 more lengthier than F-22? Check.

Your statement is not correct because johnqh's statement is entirely correct.

the SR-71 achieves Mach 3.4 thanks to ramjets and a inlet cone design that moves backwards allowing supersonic flow to the engines, the F-22 has fixed inlets.
Long is not good, bigger is not good, the SR-71 is long just to carry lots of fuel in a very narrow fuselage, but the engines are not buried type, they are not part of the fuselage mainbody, but separate entities, thus alowing for a narrow fuselage.
The SR-71 has a much narrower fuselage than the F-22 and it has wing-fuselage blending with its chines that are basicly LERXes.
Dispite all these, the SR-71 is still longer and flies faster than F-22, showing that your argument is flawed because drag is not based soley on length. Mig-25 has a length of 19.75m and a top-speed of Mach 3.2, making it longer and faster than the F-22. This, once again, shows your argument as flawed.

the J-20 cross section is not smaller than the F-22`s cross section and it has longer fuselage than the F-22`s, both cross sections are similar basicly the same with the exception of the inlet and engine nozzle separation at the end of the fuselage.
j20f22.jpg
Good. That makes the J-20 having a higher fineness-ratio. A plane which has a high fineness-ratio typically means it can fly faster.

The J-20 won`t fly beyond Mach 2.0 simply because it has DSI inlets that are fixed.
J-20's DSI inlets are said to be variable.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Fallacy of false equivalence. You can't make a claim that so and so features balance out ergo they have the same qualities, especially when that quality you are trying to discern is not founded on the premise of parts, but the whole. 1) Drag is not purely determined by the surface areas of the feature, but also sweep, and boundary layer interaction from other parts of the airplane. 2) Overall drag is determined by 3 dimensional interaction of air over the entire plane, not just its parts. You're analyzing 2D features to determine a 3D outcome.


Longer fuselage? We can probably say so with some certainty. Larger cross section? You'd have to convince us by taking a proper scaling of the aircraft's length, find the ratio of cross section to length, and give us a precise measurement to have any claim that's reasonably accurate. Putting them together in a split image without respect for the right scaling is not convincing. Furthermore, you're going with a frontal cross section, but the cross section changes along the length of the plane. It's a poor way to back up any claim about volume and mass.
Similar=/=Same. An isosceles and equilateral triangle look similar. Will they necessarily have the same area? No.



Was the J-20 designed using a super computer? Yes it was.

Is it possible the J-20 has a design more optimized to the air dominance role?: yes it is possible

conclusion: it is more likely the J-20 is designed towards an air dominance role.

See what I just did there? You haven't backed your claim as to why your statements should logically lead to your conclusions that the F-22 fits one role while the J-20 fits another. Furthermore, you have not asserted an argument as to what properties make for an air dominance role. Finally, nothing you have said about the F-22 has indicated anything that categorically relegates the J-20 to a deferring role.

Let us start with why aircraft have ventral fins?
A) because the area of the dorsal fin is insufficient to achieve lateral stability
B) becuase ventral fins are not blanketed by the fuselage at high AoA


disadvantages of ventral fins for stealth are they add extra reflections, thus ventral fins should be avoided

This shows two things, the J-20`s dorsal vertical have insufficient area to control laterally the aircraft thus it needs ventral fins.

Having several sets of vertical tails does increase drag, of course size and angle of swept influence drag, but they do influence stealth in a negative way.
But here the total area will be important, you can not say it has much less drag than the F-22 because the J-20 has ventral fins that add drag and impact negatively on stealth
 
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Engineer

Major
...by the position of the wing, the main landing gear is ahead of the main aerodynamic center, and center of lift, thus the center of gravity of the J-20 is quit ahead of the wing... this configuration makes for a more stable aircraft which means a nose heavy aircraft.
First, aerodynamic center of the aircraft is not the same as the aerodynamic center for the wing. Nice try confusing them. Secondly, you have no information for the position of either aerodynamics center. The lack of knowledge in the aerodynamic center of the aircraft precludes you from making the conclusion that J-20 is positively stable in longitudinal axis.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
SR-71's top speed -- Mach 3.3
F-22's top speed -- Mach 2.25

SR-71's length -- 32.74m
F-22's length -- 18.90m

SR-71 faster than F-22? Check. SR-71 more lengthier than F-22? Check.

Your statement is not correct because johnqh's statement is entirely correct.


Dispite all these, the SR-71 is still longer and flies faster than F-22, showing that your argument is flawed because drag is not based soley on length. Mig-25 has a length of 19.75m and a top-speed of Mach 3.2, making it longer and faster than the F-22. This, once again, shows your argument as flawed.


Good. That makes the J-20 having a higher fineness-ratio. A plane which has a high fineness-ratio typically means it can fly faster.


J-20's DSI inlets are said to be variable.

question? why do you need variable geometry inlets?
answer because engines stall due to turbulent supersonic flow that the jet engine gets, therefore if a jet engine ingest supersonic flow it will lose power, and later stall.
at high speed without the use of a variable inlet the jet won`t get its max power, by the second law of newtwon then
Newton's laws of motion
Through Newton's second law, which states: The acceleration of a body is directly proportional to the net unbalanced force and inversely proportional to the body's mass, a relationship is established between Force (F), Mass (m) and acceleration (a). This is of course a wonderful relation and of immense usefulness.
F = m x a

if you jet loses thrust it loses force then you can not get to Mach 3 even having engines rate at 16000kg of power.

The MiG-25 has variable geometry inlet the F-22 does not
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Let us start with aircraft have ventral fins?
A) because the area of the dorsal fin is insufficient to achieve lateral stability
B) becuase ventral fins are less are not blanketed by the fuselage at high AoA


disadvantages of ventral fins for stealth are they add extra reflections, thus ventral fins should be avoided

This shows two things, the J-20`s dorsal vertical have insufficient area to control laterally the aircraft thus it needs ventral fins.

Having several sets of vertical tails does increase drag, of course size and angle of swept influence drag, but they do influence stealth in a negative way.
I could take your speculative approach and come up with a completely different conclusion by focusing on different things. Why would they make the dorsal fins smaller to the point of needing ventral fins when they could just solve lateral stability problems by making the dorsal fins bigger? It must be because 1) because adding the ventral fins might be better low signature design than making the dorsal fins bigger, or 2) because the flight control system is incomplete and the ventral fins are added for extra security, and will be removed afterwards. I subscribe to neither simply because I don't know anything about how the overall shape of the airframe affects aerodynamics and stealth. The main point is your reliance on these kind of piecemeal arguments show that neither do you.
But here the total area will be important, you can not say it has much less drag than the F-22 because the J-20 has ventral fins that add drag and impact negatively on stealth
I'm not the one drawing comparisons between the F-22 and the J-20. I simply subscribe to the point that we don't know what the overall drag and lift of each design is because we don't have a wind tunnel and a supercomputer to test it, or documents which have access to these resources to tell us.

This goes into the other point I have been trying to make. You've been asserting that so and so feature makes one design deficient to another in some aspect. You can only make that claim with some confidence if all else about the airframes hold equal. In fact, the two airframes are very different, and therefore one feature will not tell you which design has what properties.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
How are the ventral fins bad for stealth when they are canted? The size of the all moving vertical stabilizers combined with the ventral fins is definitely smaller than that of the massive vertical stabilizer on the F-22.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
First, aerodynamic center of the aircraft is not the same as the aerodynamic center for the wing. Nice try confusing them. Secondly, you have no information for the position of either aerodynamics center. The lack of knowledge in the aerodynamic center of the aircraft precludes you from making the conclusion that J-20 is positively stable in longitudinal axis.

The wing is behind the main landing gear, in fact wing LERX is the only part of the wing ahead of the main landing gear, unless you claim the aerodynamic center and lift center are ahead of the landing gear and positioned in the LERX, well you proposition is basicly false.

The canard then is heavly loaded, amounting for a big chuck of total lift
j20_landing.jpg


J-10_fighting_plane_combat_aircraft_Chinese_Air_Force_001_AR.jpg


compared to the J-10 the wing of the J-20 is far to aft to allow for an unstable configuration
 
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