J-20... The New Generation Fighter II

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Mashan

New Member
All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

Now I know :)
 

Speeder

Junior Member
China stealth fighter a 'masterpiece' of homegrown technology

The first test-flight of China's Chengdu J-20 "stealth" fighter came on the same day that Robert Gates, the US defence secretary, made a key visit to Beijing, raising fears that China's defence capabilities were modernising faster than previously thought.

China's apparent advances in stealth technology, first invented in the US in the 1970s, were later linked to reports that Chinese agents had bought up wreckage of an American F-1117 Nighthawk fighter that was shot down over Serbia in 1999.

But China's state-run Global Times newspaper, a sister publication of the Communist Party mouthpiece The People's Daily, quoted Chinese military officials dismissing the claims as a Western "smear campaign".

A senior Chinese test pilot, Xu Yongling, told the paper that J-20 possessed advanced supersonic cruise ability and other "breakthrough" features of a "fifth generation" fighter, such as America's F-22 Raptor.

"Unlike previous fighters such as the J-7 and J-8, which drew on the merits of aircraft from other countries, the J-20 is a masterpiece of China's technological innovation," Mr Xu was quoted as saying.
China's nationalist tabloid media frequently likes to heap praise on the country's growing technological prowess, holding up its engineering achievements as examples of Beijing's rising power and prestige on the world stage.

Independent aviation defence analysts are more sceptical of China's claims for the J-20 which experts say is a "kludge", or hotchpotch, of different American and Russian aircraft and has very limited stealth capabilities.

However James Hardy, Asia-Pacific editor of Jane's Defence Weekly, said that it was "unlikely" that China had gleaned much from the wreckage of the F-117, which used technologies from the 1970s, but had instead developed the J-20 from old Russian technology.

"When you see it [the J-20] you will realise that at least half of this aeroplane is of Russian design," a Russian industry source told Jane's this month, "There is practically no other place that they could have come up with a platform for a stealthy or blended body design in - what is even for them [the Chinese] - such a short period of time."

The claims came a day after a former B-2 stealth bomber engineer was jailed for 32 years on Monday by a US court for selling military secrets to China.

Noshir Gowadia, 66, made profits of at least $110,000 (£68,000) by selling classified engine technology that China needed for its design of a stealth cruise missile that could evade infra-red detection, the Honolulu court heard.

Gowadia, an engineer with the Northrop Grumman Corporation between 1968-88 who worked on the B-2 design, made repeated trips to China between 2003 and 2005 providing "defence services" to China's cruise missile programme as a freelance consultant.


(source see telegraph.co.uk)


Note that "Russian industry source told Jane's" lol. This frase comes up here and there so often that truly deserves becoming a brand-new terminaology , almost as bullet-proof as "As Comrade Stalin said" .

BTW, J-20 must have sth special, esle how come both Sam and Yuri are trying that hard to beat the other in taking credits for?
 

Quickie

Colonel
China stealth fighter a 'masterpiece' of homegrown technology

The first test-flight of China's Chengdu J-20 "stealth" fighter came on the same day that Robert Gates, the US defence secretary, made a key visit to Beijing, raising fears that China's defence capabilities were modernising faster than previously thought.

China's apparent advances in stealth technology, first invented in the US in the 1970s, were later linked to reports that Chinese agents had bought up wreckage of an American F-1117 Nighthawk fighter that was shot down over Serbia in 1999.

But China's state-run Global Times newspaper, a sister publication of the Communist Party mouthpiece The People's Daily, quoted Chinese military officials dismissing the claims as a Western "smear campaign".

A senior Chinese test pilot, Xu Yongling, told the paper that J-20 possessed advanced supersonic cruise ability and other "breakthrough" features of a "fifth generation" fighter, such as America's F-22 Raptor.

"Unlike previous fighters such as the J-7 and J-8, which drew on the merits of aircraft from other countries, the J-20 is a masterpiece of China's technological innovation," Mr Xu was quoted as saying.
China's nationalist tabloid media frequently likes to heap praise on the country's growing technological prowess, holding up its engineering achievements as examples of Beijing's rising power and prestige on the world stage.

Independent aviation defence analysts are more sceptical of China's claims for the J-20 which experts say is a "kludge", or hotchpotch, of different American and Russian aircraft and has very limited stealth capabilities.

However James Hardy, Asia-Pacific editor of Jane's Defence Weekly, said that it was "unlikely" that China had gleaned much from the wreckage of the F-117, which used technologies from the 1970s, but had instead developed the J-20 from old Russian technology.

"When you see it [the J-20] you will realise that at least half of this aeroplane is of Russian design," a Russian industry source told Jane's this month, "There is practically no other place that they could have come up with a platform for a stealthy or blended body design in - what is even for them [the Chinese] - such a short period of time."

The claims came a day after a former B-2 stealth bomber engineer was jailed for 32 years on Monday by a US court for selling military secrets to China.

Noshir Gowadia, 66, made profits of at least $110,000 (£68,000) by selling classified engine technology that China needed for its design of a stealth cruise missile that could evade infra-red detection, the Honolulu court heard.

Gowadia, an engineer with the Northrop Grumman Corporation between 1968-88 who worked on the B-2 design, made repeated trips to China between 2003 and 2005 providing "defence services" to China's cruise missile programme as a freelance consultant.


(source see telegraph.co.uk)


Note that "Russian industry source told Jane's" lol. This frase comes up here and there so often that truly deserves becoming a brand-new terminaology , almost as bullet-proof as "As Comrade Stalin said" .

BTW, J-20 must have sth special, esle how come both Sam and Yuri are trying that hard to beat the other in taking credits for?

"When you see it [the Eurofighter Typhoon] you will realise that at least 80% of this aeroplane is of Russian design," a Russian industry source told ..... this month. There is practically no other place that they could have come up with a platform for ...... design in - what is even for them [the Europeans] - such a short period of time." ;)
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
It doesn't have to be RAM which makes the weapon bay lineshard to see -- it could be some sort of seal between the flaps for some other LO use, but has the side effect of making the junctions hard to see.
attachment.php

Then again it could be photoshop, to rub out the lines but I'm not sure why anyone would want to do that, and there'd be original photos floating around somewhere which we'd pick up on quite fast.



Maybe -- it's very possible they just had a placeholder there instead -- but a weapons bay isn't exactly hard to design or make, it's not very different to a landing gear door.



Actually I'd think production aircraft would have better quality than the prototype because it's all done in a smooth step by step process, probalby with more machine support.

It could just be that lighting and the particular colour of the plane makes it harder to differentiate lines. Optical effects matter.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
.Firm rebutal from China on allegation of copying 20 years old technology
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BEIJING—Chinese military experts disputed that China obtained secret U.S. technology to develop its new stealth fighter, saying the country relied on homegrown innovation to produce a plane that has drawn new international attention to its military advances.

Speculation that China obtained U.S. stealth technology has been circulating since aviation experts noted that the J-20 stealth-fighter prototype looked like a larger version of the U.S. F-22 Raptor, currently the world's only fully operational stealth fighter. The twin-engine J-20 made its first public test flight two weeks ago during a visit to China by U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

.On Sunday, the Associated Press quoted Balkan military officials saying China likely learned some of its stealth technology from pieces its agents obtained of the wreckage of a U.S. F-117 shot down by a Serbian anti-aircraft missile during the 1999 Kosovo war. The F-117 Nighthawk was the first U.S. stealth fighter.

Then, on Monday, a former U.S. B-2 stealth bomber engineer called Noshir Gowadia was sentenced by a U.S. court in Hawaii to 32 years in prison for selling stealth-missile technology—with potential applications on fighter jets—to China.

Mr. Gowadia's son, Ashton Gowadia, said his father plans to appeal.
.
..The Chinese experts rejected the idea that China obtained American technology either from espionage or from the wreckage of the F-117—which they said used less advanced technology than what China has developed—although some acknowledged that China may have used publicly available source materials.

"China is completely capable of making its own stealth fighter jet," said Li Daguang, a professor at the People's Liberation Army's National Defense University. "I think we developed the J-20 largely on our own research, but at the same time learning from existing foreign models. Many countries have already possessed stealth-jet technology...stealth materials are not considered highly sophisticated or confidential at all."

.China's Defense Ministry and Air Force declined to comment on any of the reports, as did China Aviation Industry Corp., which is developing the J-20, and the Chengdu Aircraft and Design Institute, where it is being tested. Asked about the reports at a routine briefing, Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said "I am not aware of relevant information."

Current and former U.S. officials also said in 2009 that computer spies had repeatedly broken into the program to develop the F-35, the next generation of U.S. stealth fighter. The former officials said at the time they thought the attacks came from China. Beijing has denied involvement in such cyberattacks.

Song Xiaojun, a former naval officer who is now a military commentator for Chinese state television, attributed the reports that China appropriated its stealth technology to those who "just envy and hate us for having developed the jet, for we made something they thought we'd never be able to make. I'm saying that I'm sure the technology is 100% Chinese."

.The F-117 was developed in secrecy in the 1970s and began service in 1983. It was not completely invisible to radar, but was very hard to detect because of its unique radar-absorbent coating. The one shot down over Serbia was the first to be hit. The F-117 was retired in 2008.

The AP quoted Adm. Davor Domazet-Loso, Croatia's military chief of staff during the Kosovo war, as saying intelligence reports in 1999 described Chinese agents "criss-crossing" the region where the F-117 went down, and buying bits of wreckage from local farmers.

"We believe the Chinese used those materials to gain an insight into secret stealth technologies ... and to reverse-engineer them," he was quoted as saying.

Parts of the F-117 are still exhibited at Belgrade's aviation museum.

Wang Yanan, associate editor-in-chief at China's Aerospace Knowledge magazine, said there was no point in China acquiring wreckage parts of the F-117, as its technology was already outdated in 1999.

Still, other analysts point to signs of Chinese interest in the F-117. Andrei Chang, the Hong Kong-based editor of Kanwa Defense, an online publication about military affairs, said China had also built a scale model of the F-117 at an aviation research institute in the city of Luoyang in Henan province.

He included in an emailed statement what he said was a satellite photograph of the F-117 model, taken in May 2010.

"This is the fundamental reason why it took China only a very short period of time to develop several types of stealth materials in Beijing," he said.

The B-2, which was developed in the 1980s and first unveiled in 1988, is still used as a long-range strategic bomber and has never been shot down.

Mr. Gowadia—the former B-2 engineer sentenced Monday—moved from India to the U.S. for postgraduate work in the 1960s and became a U.S. citizen about a decade later.

He helped design the propulsion system for the B-2 when he worked at Northrop Corp., now known as Northrop Grumman Corp., between 1968 and 1986.

He was arrested in 2005. A federal jury in Honolulu found that he pocketed about $110,000 to help China design a cruise-missile exhaust nozzle that would give off less heat, allowing it to evade infrared radar detection and U.S. heat-seeking missiles.

He was not accused of assisting with the J-20 program, although prosecutors did say that he visited an aviation design facility in Chengdu, the western city where the stealth fighter has been tested.

However, aviation experts have noted that the J-20 prototype that made the test flight had unusual exhaust nozzles, which appear to be designed to prevent it from emitting enough heat to be detected by infrared radar.
 
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Lobotomizer

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Hi all ! newbie here and following the tread here, I like this new plane !

It's follish to think that engineer cannot inspire their design on what was done before. It's totally insane to wash away all the experiences of other constructors. Evolution of design it's a good way to do things better and faster. Evolution means improving too... look at how much problem they have with f22 and b2 in their first years of use when their coating peels when they pass trough rains...pionneer bring the discovery of new problems...the Jsf won't probably have

In the last 25 years, no nation have done as many new aircraft design than China and start construction of them. In other nation we have seen the f22(1990) jsf (2000), superhornet f18(new?), some su27 and mig29 variant(new?),su-35(new?) and t-50, indian LCA, eurofighter and rafale. some trainers too, but not a lot of planes per nation.

In China j-10, j-20, jh-7, fc-1, jl-9,l15 and j-11 a sukhoi chinese made variant. I forgot something probably. a yes going to space when nasa it's more and more unable to... oups a little off topics

China with their evergrowing national economy can afford to design new jets. With money comes time, knowledge, technology, engineer to do the things fast and great. I don't think we have times to play cat and mouse on where their plane come from or their idea...
They do what they need to do and they do it well it seems...

if they build this plane up faster than everybody was thinking, why they will have'nt a good engine and radar soon... or they have it already? who know

They will not please us with giving all their candy... so we have to guess
 
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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Song Xiaojun is probably the most patriotic military commentator on CCTV. Remember the whole fiasco when Zhang Zhaozhong claimed, in early 2010, that there was no 5th gen fighter in development and the J-20 was only a 4.5 gen fighter. Poor guy must be eating his words right now.
 

maozedong

Banned Idiot
I still don't understand CCTV said that J-20 use original stealth material, it is not coating, so what is it, I don't think it is the stealth material mixed into the plane body.
 

Centrist

Junior Member
I don't understand Chinese, but someone on this forum suggested that the stealth material was under the aircraft's skin. Someone should enlighten me.
 
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