J-20 5th Generation Fighter VII

Bltizo said:

I commend your explanations for why a 4+ generation airframe's RCS reduction measures simply cannot compare to a proper 5th generation aircraft, but at the same time, the sheer extent of news media (mostly Indian) that have touted the Rafale as the descent of a diety makes it a bit hard to refute the sheer degree of conviction that their tabloids have been pushing.

I kid you not, the below is just one example from

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I have a feeling we might get a large amount of people reading such articles and similar in terms of "comparing" Rafale with J-20 in coming days and weeks, so it might be a good idea to know where the basis and reasoning of some of these questions might come from..


Note, I write this post specifically because I don't want this thread to turn into a Rafale and J-20 comparison thread

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I think you should write an article on the Diplomat for this! I am sure such a comparison would quickly get picked up by Indian media and be a massive hit . It definitely will send some shockwaves there.

siegecrossbow said:

I actually am not too upset about people ragging on the J-20. To attack it with such vehement dismissal means that it is worth attacking in the first place. No one would, for instance, compare a J-8 with the Rafale in the first place. The fact that they are even bringing up the J-20 is testament to its success.

I also get a lot of F-35 vibes from all the Indian media hatred. Reminds me of how Carlo Kopp kept on ragging on it the early 2010s.

Finally, it is just the nature of Indian media to brag about whatever acquisition they made. The religious fervor they are devoting to the Rafale is mind boggling. However I don’t doubt that they would’ve showered the FGFA with praises had that deal gone through. Nowadays a lot of Indians are actually insulting Russian military hardware. I wonder what would happen if Rafale doesn’t live up to their expectations in the next conflict.

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Figaro said:

I think you should write an article on the Diplomat for this! I am sure such a comparison would quickly get picked up by Indian media and be a massive hit . It definitely will send some shockwaves there.

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I don't want to mock their comparisons too much, it's just that I think for the purpose of this thread in the next little while it may be instructive for us to treat any questions that might be a result of those kind of articles with the level of attention that it deserves -- which is to say little to none.

Let's not turn this flagship thread into something silly and idiotic.

siegecrossbow said:

I wonder what would happen if Rafale doesn’t live up to their expectations in the next conflict.

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Then they will claim Chinese data is fake and make their own numbers out of nothing without any concrete proof. Just like they did in Galwan Valley incident.
"Superior IAF Rafale easily shot down XX numbers of China's Air Forces J-20 in 3 minutes Aerial warfare"

Bltizo said:

I don't want to mock their comparisons too much, it's just that I think for the purpose of this thread in the next little while it may be instructive for us to treat any questions that might be a result of those kind of articles with the level of attention that it deserves -- which is to say little to none.

Let's not turn this flagship thread into something silly and idiotic.

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Yes, I personally hope you make an objective analysis in diplomat too.

Not for mocking them, but for peace.

Under estimating enemy is one of major reason some country goes to war.
Imagine if majority of Indian politician believe that crap, under estimating Chinese Capability..and they become happy trigger with that crap in their mindset.


Sometimes, we don't realize how much one wrong analysis can affect decision makers.

Keep up your good work anyway @Bltizo
Just ignore my personal opinion if you don't like

Like I said before, Blitzo and Latenlazy shouldn't get so worked up about what people publish in the news media. A lot of this stuff is internal propaganda; it doesn't need to be true, it just needs to appeal to the target audience who need to believe in a "Bharat Stronk!" narrative.

Talking with Indian friends and discussing really bad articles in the Hindustani Times over the nature of Chinese conscription (recycling in part a really bad article in SmallWarsJournal working on the same fallacy, and for less informed readers, the PLA is a conscript army in name only, as they get enough volunteers due to the size of the Chinese population), I was informed that a substantial part of Indian media is owned by a single family with Hindu nationalist pretensions.

In other words, you're getting pissed off over Fox News-type coverage, except because of a lack of familiarity with Indian media, you don't even know it's Fox News.

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As to the Rafale vs J-20 claims, as I've made clear before, any casual measurement reveals the J-20's canards are not coplanar with the main wing. A strict measurement reveals the same for ventral fins, although the margin of ventral fin vs tailfin alignment is very very small.

And if the Rafale can achieve 0.01 m^2 at select angles, the J-20 can achieve 0.0001 m^2 at select angles as shown by various RCS simulations.

stannislas said:

you are right, but like what I said, given a rough estimation over the number @Inst claimed according to the pixel counting should give a length closer to the real thing... but still an estimation

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Except all of the estimates are within 2-3%. One thing I've noticed is that if you want to work off the grid method, there's about a 0.77% incline reducing the effective sizes of the grid boxes.

If you want to spend a couple of days work on the project, you can get some very precise numbers from working off the relative distortion of boxes over distance from the image center to compensate for perspective.

But I think it's a fact that the J-20 is longer than the Su-57, although narrower in wingspan, and the J-20 ranges from 20.8 meters to 21.3 meters, and 12.8 meters in wingspan to 13.2 meters in wingspan.

Figaro said:

I think you should write an article on the Diplomat for this! I am sure such a comparison would quickly get picked up by Indian media and be a massive hit

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haahaa, you cannot wake up someone pretending to be asleep.
Bltizo can write up an article using the most solid scientific data and flawless logical arguments, but it will definitely fall on deaf ears and get ridiculed by the overconfident crowds from you know where.

Inst said:

Like I said before, Blitzo and Latenlazy shouldn't get so worked up about what people publish in the news media. A lot of this stuff is internal propaganda; it doesn't need to be true, it just needs to appeal to the target audience who need to believe in a "Bharat Stronk!" narrative.

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In this case it's not so much as what people publish in the media so much as what people read in the media and then coming here to ask stupid questions.
They can publish what they want, but I don't want to spend effort as a moderator now to clear out pages of nonsense going forwards.

This is just my way of preempting that.

Inst said:

Like I said before, Blitzo and Latenlazy shouldn't get so worked up about what people publish in the news media. A lot of this stuff is internal propaganda; it doesn't need to be true, it just needs to appeal to the target audience who need to believe in a "Bharat Stronk!" narrative.

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I’ve stopped caring. Too busy these days to play keyboard warrior. I’m never making it to the 5000 post club at this rate.