J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VIII

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Never understood why there is no dedicated EW variant of the J-20. The side weapons bays are ideal to house the sensing/emitting equipment needed, with the space for the main bays to be used for cooling, processors and perhaps a bit more fuel and to leave enough room for 2x PL-15/16 for self defence.

How would you tell if there was such a variant if they kept the bays closed?

Moreover, what you described are things that could very feasibly be modular, and thus could be swapped in and out as missions demands rather than needing a dedicated platform.

Although I think maybe the main weapons bay would be a better place for the pods, (which could have telescoping mounts to allow for full stealth internal storage and then external deployment of the pods as needed), since the side bays may be too small to miniaturise the EW pod that much without loss of capabilities/performance if you take the J16D pods for size reference. Although it would certainly be possible to do a quad pod layout, with two in the side bays and two in the main bays.

The main bay would need to remain open in such a scenario when EW ops are ongoing, but the increased signature shouldn’t really be a concern if you are doing active EW work anyways. Having the main bay open would also solve the biggest challenge with such a variant - cooling. Rather than needing to do internal ducting, they can just dump the excess heat out directly from the open MWB. They could even add more power generation with an air ram turbine that telescopes out of the main bay alongside the pods. The only limiting factor would be if they could fit all that gear in the main bays internal volume.
 

cft4201

Just Hatched
Registered Member
How would you tell if there was such a variant if they kept the bays closed?

Moreover, what you described are things that could very feasibly be modular, and thus could be swapped in and out as missions demands rather than needing a dedicated platform.

Although I think maybe the main weapons bay would be a better place for the pods, (which could have telescoping mounts to allow for full stealth internal storage and then external deployment of the pods as needed), since the side bays may be too small to miniaturise the EW pod that much without loss of capabilities/performance if you take the J16D pods for size reference. Although it would certainly be possible to do a quad pod layout, with two in the side bays and two in the main bays.

The main bay would need to remain open in such a scenario when EW ops are ongoing, but the increased signature shouldn’t really be a concern if you are doing active EW work anyways. Having the main bay open would also solve the biggest challenge with such a variant - cooling. Rather than needing to do internal ducting, they can just dump the excess heat out directly from the open MWB. They could even add more power generation with an air ram turbine that telescopes out of the main bay alongside the pods. The only limiting factor would be if they could fit all that gear in the main bays internal volume.
I think there's also a cost consideration. IIRC the J-16D already costs more than a J-20.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Never understood why there is no dedicated EW variant of the J-20. The side weapons bays are ideal to house the sensing/emitting equipment needed, with the space for the main bays to be used for cooling, processors and perhaps a bit more fuel and to leave enough room for 2x PL-15/16 for self defence.

The same could be said of the Raptor.

You do realise EW requires an aircraft to be actively transmitting radar energy?

It kind of defeats the purpose of using a stealth fighter.
 

Nevermore

Junior Member
Registered Member
The J-20's side ammunition bays are completely useless in beyond-visual-range combat. It would be great if they could be replaced with fuel tanks or electronic warfare kits in the future.
 

tphuang

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
3x longer detection range would mean an increase of ~13x the energy output. I don't think that is feasible wrt to cooling etc.
The point of GaN on SiC is greater heat absorption. The power itself is reachable because there’s much greater heat sinking at the module level.

It’s also not like you are running the radars on peak power constantly. Ultimately what matters is average rate at which your system adds heat vs average rate at which it transfers it. Much greater peaks don’t always mean much greater averages.

I don't think we should use the 3x range comment as gospel. Let's just take that as the new radar is likely significantly longer ranging than earlier j-20. Whether that's comparing J-20A/J-20S radar vs latest J-20 radar or an earlier J-20 GaA radar, I don't think it's too clear. Just use the article to appreciate that the range improved significantly.

Improved range would be achieved from not only higher RF output, but also better compute and software improvement. The latter does not require as much power as the former.

As for cooling, you get less heat for the same output from a higher voltage platform. Higher volt -> less flow for the same power

I keep mentioning higher voltage platform for a reason.

SiC substrate should also be a better heat conductor than Si as you can see in various available tables. Also improved tech meaning less power gets leaked & more of it goes out, again better power efficiency and less residual heat.


No, J-20 always had GaN-on-SiC radar not just J-20AS/A!
CETC had a visit from Xi either earlier last year or the year before (can't remember) that had him holding a SiC substrate for RF. At the time, it was said to be a major breakthrough.

GaN-on-SiC at production level is a recent phenomenon.

There are several GaN technologies. Not just GaN on SiC. There is GaN on Si, there is GaN on Sapphire, etc.

The main advantage of using SiC as a substrate is that it handles higher temperatures better while still being relatively cheap to manufacture.
They actually only got good at SiC substrate in the past year or so. It takes time for stuff to mature. Just because they could do 4-inch SiC substrate back 5 years ago for power applications, people should not assume 6-inch military grade RF SiC substrate was also available at that time.

Not always the case, Chinese military has more mature engines compared with its civilian counterparts. For all we know the military might have been the ones to drive down the production prices of GaN so that it became competitive in the civilian market.


I don't have any proof, but I don't think China would have started production of J-20 without the latest and capable technology they can get their hands on.
the military demand for GaN is quite small vs civilian side of things.

Just to put things in perspective, Guobo (who makes MMIC for military aircraft) built a production line for 20 million GaN RF chips for 5G base stations per year. What do you think is the scale for military aircraft compared to that?

And it seems like they put J-20 in service as soon as they can in order to start tactical development of employing & countering stealth aircraft. I don't see why they can't put it in service with GaA radar.

Oh my God I cannot get over how good the electric (?) blue tint looks on those EO windows.
It really does look great. Also another huge power consumer. I'd be curious what kind of improvement in range they got from this new EOTS.
 

tphuang

General
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Super Moderator
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Registered Member
High-resolution images.

54635374957_0739008046_o.jpg
Really noob question, but I haven't done a careful comparison of the underside of J-20A vs J-20S. How would we tell from this angle which one it is?
 
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