J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[Inst]

Re: F-35 IR stealth, the F119 and F135 have the same turbine temperatures. It's possible that the F135 in contrast to the F119 is optimized for greater mass airflow, and it's also possible that the stated F119 figures include the flat nozzle imposing a thrust reduction (part of the thrust force is absorbed by the sides of the flat nozzle).

As to whether the F-35 would have superlative IR stealth; the main trade-off between it and the F-22 is the lack of flat IR-signature reducing nozzles. Since IR signature is an exponential function of temperature, it's possible that the F-22, despite outputting about 6/7th of the thrust, has better IR stealth.

And AFB, I've already shown with Brumby that the US is claiming that the F-35 is stealthier than the F-22. Believable, when the F-35 is smaller (about 25% less wingspan) and that it claims improvements in RAM vs the F-22.

 

[subotai1]

I find it dubious that they will use more than half of the fleet (seven) at a practice run for the October 1sr parade if that were true.

They wouldn't. And they definitely wouldn't do that if they were going to pause the line to to build them with new engines. So, his (MIG29) logic is wrong.

How the hell dis MIG-29 get his hands on the February 2020 issue of a Japanese magazine? The last time I checked it is still January.

Well, if its like the US, magazine published months have little basis in reality. January gets published in November, February in December, etc.

 

[by78]

Smooth-looking bird.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: F-35 IR stealth, the F119 and F135 have the same turbine temperatures. It's possible that the F135 in contrast to the F119 is optimized for greater mass airflow, and it's also possible that the stated F119 figures include the flat nozzle imposing a thrust reduction (part of the thrust force is absorbed by the sides of the flat nozzle).

As to whether the F-35 would have superlative IR stealth; the main trade-off between it and the F-22 is the lack of flat IR-signature reducing nozzles. Since IR signature is an exponential function of temperature, it's possible that the F-22, despite outputting about 6/7th of the thrust, has better IR stealth.

And AFB, I've already shown with Brumby that the US is claiming that the F-35 is stealthier than the F-22. Believable, when the F-35 is smaller (about 25% less wingspan) and that it claims improvements in RAM vs the F-22.

There are no doubt a few aspect angles were it is quite likely the F-35 has a lower RCS signature, but theres no way the F=35 has the all aspect L/O RCS of the F-22, you are likely referring to a statement by "Hawk Carlisle", whom I respect greatly..... but that in no way negates the fabulous L/O shaping of the F-22, I believe "Hawk" was specifically thinking of the much easier to maintain radar absorbent coatings of the F-35...

 

[Brumby]

And AFB, I've already shown with Brumby that the US is claiming that the F-35 is stealthier than the F-22. Believable, when the F-35 is smaller (about 25% less wingspan) and that it claims improvements in RAM vs the F-22.

.... and i have already explained to you what I think was the context of that statement. This is a J-20 thread after all and not about the F-35/F-22.

 

[11226p]

I recently read the different language J-20 pages on wikipedia via google translate and I noticed that the chinese one lists 55+ service aircraft. The source for this is a sinamilitary article from 2017

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which doesn't give the 55+ number anywhere. There seemed to be some questionable statements in the article but it states that there should by now be at least 4 production lines for the J-20. Anyway the 55+ number implies something like 3 batches of production aircraft. This seems to be somewhat reasonable given the different used engine types.

But I want to now, can someone confirm or refute this / assess the credibility of the inventory and production line numbers?

 

[Inst]

There are no doubt a few aspect angles were it is quite likely the F-35 has a lower RCS signature, but theres no way the F=35 has the all aspect L/O RCS of the F-22, you are likely referring to a statement by "Hawk Carlisle", whom I respect greatly..... but that in no way negates the fabulous L/O shaping of the F-22, I believe "Hawk" was specifically thinking of the much easier to maintain radar absorbent coatings of the F-35...

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I'm pointing to Bogdan's purported statement that the F-35 is stealthier than the F-22.

I think we agree on the main factor, i.e, the F-22 has all-aspect stealth, but the F-35 in its key angles is stealthier than the F-22. So the F-35 could be detected more easily from a bad angle, but the F-35, if its emissions control system is functioning and the positioning is ideal, is going to be more difficult to detect at least by narrow-band radar.

Just saying, the F-22 is eventually going to be replaced by PCA / NGAD, and the USAF knows it. It's no longer essential and the fighter to beat for the J-20 (bringing the conversation back into context), especially since the F-22 is irreplaceable and can be attritioned down by J-20s. It's the F-35 that's the main opponent, one the J-20 has to be able to score a 2:1 kill-loss ratio against to be effective.

 

[Biscuits]

In the upcoming decade, we will probably see a military budget rebalancing, because of the increased use of military threat and international terrorism. Even just moving to NATO member spending level will significantly add to the numbers. China doesn't lack the population to build a major military, its just that very few of that population are in the military or working with it right now.

Eventually matching F-35 numbers with J-20 should not be a long term problem. In the short term, J-20 can still network with older aircrafts and anti stealth radars to mitigate numerical disadvantage.

 

[Inst]

In the upcoming decade, we will probably see a military budget rebalancing, because of the increased use of military threat and international terrorism. Even just moving to NATO member spending level will significantly add to the numbers. China doesn't lack the population to build a major military, its just that very few of that population are in the military or working with it right now.

Eventually matching F-35 numbers with J-20 should not be a long term problem. In the short term, J-20 can still network with older aircrafts and anti stealth radars to mitigate numerical disadvantage.

At last check, the J-20 was about 117 million (iirc), while the F-35A reached 79 million per unit. Once costs are adjusted for PPP, the J-20 is much more expensive. It definitely has its advantages; the J-20 is a heavyweight fighter that has more room for expansion than the F-35, whose low engine thrust relative to airframe means that it'll take larger performance hits for additional subsystems, but the J-20 is still heavyweight, not middle-weight or stealth light-weight.

The J-20 either needs to be able to take on the F-35 at 2:1 ratios or have the J-31 put into the air en masse to compensate for this numbers disadvantage.

The heavyweight fighter paradigm is more based on the fact that 4th gen heavyweights tended to have far better BVR performance than lightweights or middleweights, meaning that F-15s and Su-27s became more than a match for MiG-29s and F-16s respectively. In the stealth paradigm, going heavyweight means that you sacrifice IR stealth, and BVR as an engagement mode is now questionable with IRST being the norm.

Moreover, the IRST on the J-20 is not enlarged compared to the F-35 IRST, implying that it has the same or similar performance level, denying the J-20 BVR advantages in the IR field.

 

[manqiangrexue]

At last check, the J-20 was about 117 million (iirc),

Can you post your source for this? I've never seen a reliable estimate for J-20 cost before not to mention a number with that many significant figures.