J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[Air Force Brat]

I would agree with the preliminary assessment that if indeed the J-20 has transitioned to a WS-10 type engine then it is probably a variant with sufficient thrust improvement to warrant a change.

I would add that its President Xi's national policy that China buy Chinese by 2025, its probably a little awkward for China's premier jet fighter to be flying on Russian engines, so now that the WS-10 has matured, it will be powering the J-20....

 

[Blitzo]

Initially I thought it was maybe a typo on your part referring to "WS-10" instead of "WS-15". Seige was saying earlier that WS-10 had been around a long time and that there are plenty of Flankers flying with it but in your statement it seems that the WS-10 may not be ready. It is why I am having trouble reconciling the different statements. .

Siege's answer is basically close to what I would've written, but I'll answer it anyway.

Basically, there are different WS-10 variants.

All land based SAC Flankers produced since the first batch of J-11B back around 2008 have been powered by WS-10s. So yes, there are plenty of Flankers flying with WS-10s in PLAAF service for quite a few years now, with new build J-16s and other land based Flankers continuing to be powered by WS-10s.

Now in the case of J-20, there are a few issues at play:
1: we don't know what exact variant of Al-31 the prototype and current production J-20s are using. I.e.: just like how there are different WS-10 variants, there are also different Al-31 variants. And we have had some indications in the past that the Al-31s J-20 is using is different/uprated/more powerful than the Al-31s that previous PLAAF Flankers were using. That is to say, we don't know if the Al-31s J-20 were using were more powerful than the WS-10s that SAC Flankers have been being produced with.
2: we don't know what exact variant of WS-10 the J-20 has been tested with (i.e.: J-20 s/n 2021). We know that externally the WS-10s tested by that J-20 has different serrated nozzles to the WS-10s used aboard SAC Flankers. However we don't know if it has any additional enhancements on top of it, such as uprated thrust, IR signature, so on and so forth.

So when I say "if a domestic WS-10 is ready" I mean to say the J-20 specific WS-10 variant to replace the (possible/likely) J-20 specific Al-31 variant.

Regardless of history and the reasons for the decisions, is there now a shift to the WS-10 engine for the J-20?

With engine issues I prefer to err on the side of caution -- for me, if J-20 has shifted to WS-10s for production then I would like to see at least one J-20 with in service serial numbers at an in service unit to make that call.

However yes, it seems like the rumours from credible individuals are strongly suggesting that J-20 production has shifted to WS-10s.

 

[SpicySichuan]

The last time WS-10 had serious issues was around 2009. Since then around two to three hundred combat aircraft have entered service with Taihangs without major problems. WS-10 equipped J-11Bs not only emerged victorious from several Golden Helmets exercises but also were involved in high profile interceptions of foreign aircraft in the South and East China Seas. If they didn't trust the WS-10, they wouldn't have allowed the J-10B TVC to perform at Zhuhai last November.

But J-10 and J-20 continue to use AL31-FN series 3 engines. Nearly all Chengdu-made aircraft use AL-31 FN series (and the new series 3 is indeed a good engine, but the original Al-31 FN was arguably responsible for the tragic death of Captain Yu Xu and a number J-10A pilots). Only Shenyang J-11B and J-16 use domestic engines. If I see both J-10Cs and J-20s start using WS-10 series engines like the J-11B and J-16, that would be a huge milestone.

 

[Blitzo]

But J-10 and J-20 continue to use AL31-FN series 3 engines. Nearly all Chengdu-made aircraft use AL-31 FN series (and the new series 3 is indeed a good engine, but the original Al-31 FN was arguably responsible for the tragic death of Captain Yu Xu and a number J-10A pilots). Only Shenyang J-11B and J-16 use domestic engines. If I see both J-10Cs and J-20s start using WS-10 series engines like the J-11B and J-16, that would be a huge milestone.

Since the late 2000s the only Chinese combat aircraft types that have been in ongoing production has been J-10s and Flankers.

Of the two, all J-10s use Al-31s, however of the Flankers, all land based SAC Flankers have used WS-10s after the first batch of J-11Bs.

So I would hardly say "only J-11B and J-16 use domestic engines" -- the fact that all land based SAC Flankers use WS-10s is very impressive to begin with.


For all CAC built aircraft like J-10s and J-20s to use WS-10s as well would certainly be next level milestone that would mean almost complete self sufficiency for new production PLAAF fighter turbofan engines. Such a milestone would be more than merely "a huge milestone" but arguably be the milestone that the PRC aeroengine industry has been striving for many long decades. It would mark an end of an era.

 

[FriedRiceNSpice]

But J-10 and J-20 continue to use AL31-FN series 3 engines. Nearly all Chengdu-made aircraft use AL-31 FN series (and the new series 3 is indeed a good engine, but the original Al-31 FN was arguably responsible for the tragic death of Captain Yu Xu and a number J-10A pilots). Only Shenyang J-11B and J-16 use domestic engines. If I see both J-10Cs and J-20s start using WS-10 series engines like the J-11B and J-16, that would be a huge milestone.

J-20 does not use the AL-31 FN-3 - it supposedly uses the AL-31 M2, which generates more thrust than the FN Series 3. The WS-10B may very likely generate more thrust than the AL-31 FN-3, but would still fall short of the AL-31 M2. Therefore, it can be inferred that whatever variant of WS-10 now being used on the J-20 must be superior to the WS-10B used in the Flankers and at least on par, if not superior to the AL-31 M2.

 

[Klon]

 

[Equation]

J-20 does not use the AL-31 FN-3 - it supposedly uses the AL-31 M2, which generates more thrust than the FN Series 3. The WS-10B may very likely generate more thrust than the AL-31 FN-3, but would still fall short of the AL-31 M2. Therefore, it can be inferred that whatever variant of WS-10 now being used on the J-20 must be superior to the WS-10B used in the Flankers and at least on par, if not superior to the AL-31 M2.

From what I remember, FN3 generates 137kN while WS-10B falls just short of 135kN. The FM2 that's supposedly on the J-20 generates 145kN. I can't see China, even for the sake of full indigenization of the J-20, put an engine worse than what Russia's offering on its premier stealth fighter. However, afterburner is just one aspect; the WS-10 line was developed from a civilian engine and from what I recall, enjoys significantly greater dry thrust than comparable AL-31 variants. So if a new WS-10 had comparable or even slightly weaker afterburner than AL-31FM2 but it had much more dry thrust, the PLAAF may want it since it would greatly enhance the range and super-cruise capabilities without noticeably hindering the emergency dash/maneuvering.

 

[Deino]

 

[Deino]

From what I remember, FN3 generates 137kN while WS-10B falls just short of 135kN. The FM2 that's supposedly on the J-20 generates 145kN. I can't see China, even for the sake of full indigenization of the J-20, put an engine worse than what Russia's offering on its premier stealth fighter. However, afterburner is just one aspect; the WS-10 line was developed from a civilian engine and from what I recall, enjoys significantly greater dry thrust than comparable AL-31 variants. So if a new WS-10 had comparable or even slightly weaker afterburner than AL-31FM2 but it had much more dry thrust, the PLAAF may want it since it would greatly enhance the range and super-cruise capabilities without noticeably hindering the emergency dash/maneuvering.

However we need to remember, that there is NO confirmation on this engine, it was a theory I or we summed up some time ago.

 

[sequ]

So no TVC for the J-20 but it does have serrated nozles now. The J-10 looks like it has an AL-31 variant, but I guess it's a WS-10.