J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[Brumby]

There is a J-20 article in the February edition of Air International written by Piotr Butowski. Inevitably the discussion went to a comparison between the AAQ-40 EOTS on the F-35 and the one installed on the J-20. Since specification details are lacking on what has gone into the J-20, he concluded (succinctly in my view) and I quote “Similarity to the F-35 system is one thing, but it is hard to make any judgement on the quality of the J-20’s system; the fact that something looks the same, does not mean that it works the same.”

 

[Blitzo]

There is a J-20 article in the February edition of Air International written by Piotr Butowski. Inevitably the discussion went to a comparison between the AAQ-40 EOTS on the F-35 and the one installed on the J-20. Since specification details are lacking on what has gone into the J-20, he concluded (succinctly in my view) and I quote “Similarity to the F-35 system is one thing, but it is hard to make any judgement on the quality of the J-20’s system; the fact that something looks the same, does not mean that it works the same.”

i had a look at the piece.

Obviously it's entirely sensible to say that it is near impossible to guess what the relative quality of key subsystems like sensors and avionics are like.

However there are a few parts in his article I find confusing; for example he claims that his sources say there is currently no fighter AESA in series production in China, and that J-20 is using an interim radar.
He also says that some of the J-20s EOIRST sensors were "mock ups" however I think it's been concluded for a while now that what we thought were "mock ups" were really just covers sitting atop the real EOIRST sensor itself.

 

[Brumby]

However there are a few parts in his article I find confusing; for example he claims that his sources say there is currently no fighter AESA in series production in China, and that J-20 is using an interim radar.

I re-read the parts of the article that you pointed out. Let’s examine the entirety of what he actually said pertaining to the radar and I quote,
“The J-20’s fire-control radar is believed to be an active electronically-scanned array (AESA) system developed by the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET, or 14 Institute), equipped with a single front antenna. However, informed sources insist there is still no series-production AESA fighter radar available in China, and all J-20s are temporarily fitted with more conventional systems. At Zhuhai 2018, the Nanjing institute displayed two versions of the KLJ-7A AESA radar, which is intended for the smaller JF-17 Block III export fighter, but similar solutions could probably be installed and integrated on the J-20. Each version of the KLJ-7A features a different method for widening its search angles, which are narrow for AESA antennas. One method features the antenna installed on a gimbal, which allows it to tilt towards the target. The second method uses three antennas: a main, forward-looking antenna, and two small, side-looking antennas. Each method is a copy of Russian electronic scanning radar designs. The Su-35’s N135 Irbis radar features a tilting antenna, and the Su-57’s N036 Byelka radar has a three-antenna array. A single fixed antenna version of the KLJ-7A radar was displayed at the Zhuhai 2016 air show.”

This is my interpretation based on the relevant statement :
“ informed sources insist there is still no series-production AESA fighter radar available in China, and all J-20s are temporarily fitted with more conventional systems.”

Given that the two statements are connected by the word “and”, it would suggest to me that the intended meaning is that the AESA specific to the J-20 is not in series production and is not a general statement on the state of the fighter industry. If his statement is factually correct, all it means to me is that the current AESA design for the J-20 is not finalized.

He also says that some of the J-20s EOIRST sensors were "mock ups" however I think it's been concluded for a while now that what we thought were "mock ups" were really just covers sitting atop the real EOIRST sensor itself.

I could not find any statement that he made that suggested the J-20 EOIRST were “mock ups”. This is what was said and I quote “Nota bene: while J-20s 78232 and 78233 displayed at Zhuhai in November 2018 had real distributed EO sensors, aircraft 78231 was fitted with mock-ups.” His statement to me is his attempt to report facts. If those facts are wrong that should be corrected but it is far different in meaning that he seems to suggest that the state of the EOIRST implementation is entirely mockups

 

[Figaro]

However, informed sources insist there is still no series-production AESA fighter radar available in China, and all J-20s are temporarily fitted with more conventional systems.

Never trust anonymous or unnamed sources. The J-20 prototypes (201X series) from 5 years back were already equipped with the AESA radar. If you need proof, there are a couple pictures of the Chinese AESA radar intended for the J-20 floating around in this forum since 2013. Judging from your quotes from the article, I can guess his sources are likely of foreign origin, which are hardly credible.

 

[siegecrossbow]

I think the claim that the J-20 uses conventional radar is dubious considering that both the J-10C and J-16 are confirmed to use AESA radars. No sense to use an inferior radar on a more advanced airframe.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

It may be an AESA but still not the intended radar but a place holder.

 

[plawolf]

Whenever western defence journos talk of ‘informed sources’ I just assume they are quoting pinkov.

I mean, why would Chinese insiders commit treason to give scopes to western defence journalists?

The big shrimps of Chinese military reporting post almost exclusively on Chinese boards because what they say are meant for domestic Chinese military fans. And even then they make sure not to disclose anything truly sensitive.

So I would say the chances of any Chinese insiders speaking to western journalists is pretty much zero.

 

[ougoah]

Ridiculously stupid article. How can J-10C and J-16 both be officially stated as using AESA and recognised by western government papers and think tanks to be using at least a second generation of Chinese AESA radars? While J-20 uses "conventional" radars?? Most western "insiders" also confirm J-20 is already flying with an AESA. Okay maybe the current AESA is a placeholder for a better one but that's hardly a conventional set. Knowing the production rate will mean the insider knows the ins and outs of the Chinese radar industry very intimately. Such a leaker is highly dubious. Particularly if the information leaked reaches such a public exposure. Any real leaks will be tightly controlled so as to not reveal their hand!

This guy is yet another muppet. I think these journos have no real interest in military affairs and technology. They just write whatever to fill the space and sell articles and magazines. The evidence is in the suggestion that the Zhuhai show's two AESA export models for JF-17 were claimed to be for J-20 The reality is the JF-17 potential export AESAs with side modules are probably better than the ones in Su-57. Russian radar technology as witnessed by the Su-35, is well and truly far behind China already. This should come as no surprise seeing as the Russian Federation has had a 20 year lag with all their industries and experts now lost or retired. One of the export AESAs for JF-17 is claimed to be based on the current J-20's AESA unit's technology. The performance difference between the two can be huge once you consider the size of the radome difference between J-20 and JF-17 and the available power of two high thrust engines compared to a single medium thrust. PAF may very well be ordering one of the two available AESA upgrades for both early block JF-17 and Block 3s. If that goes ahead, it indicates their complete satisfaction with such a high cost upgrade for a budget fighter, proving the small power efficient AESAs are leagues ahead of "conventional" units. This would mean J-20's current "placeholder" AESAs are weapons in and of itself.

Also should add this idiot probably doesn't understand the real difference between different production methods for AESA modules and assembled units. Definitely a journalist. Good at pulling shit out of their ass and couldn't get through high school science. Sound similar to Minnie Chan and co.

 

[Air Force Brat]

There is a J-20 article in the February edition of Air International written by Piotr Butowski. Inevitably the discussion went to a comparison between the AAQ-40 EOTS on the F-35 and the one installed on the J-20. Since specification details are lacking on what has gone into the J-20, he concluded (succinctly in my view) and I quote “Similarity to the F-35 system is one thing, but it is hard to make any judgement on the quality of the J-20’s system; the fact that something looks the same, does not mean that it works the same.”

I believe Piotr may be one of Deino's cohorts if I'm not mistaken?? if I am mistaken Deino, please do correct me? I thought I had recalled you mentioning his name???

 

[Air Force Brat]

Ridiculously stupid article. How can J-10C and J-16 both be officially stated as using AESA and recognised by western government papers and think tanks to be using at least a second generation of Chinese AESA radars? While J-20 uses "conventional" radars?? Most western "insiders" also confirm J-20 is already flying with an AESA. Okay maybe the current AESA is a placeholder for a better one but that's hardly a conventional set. Knowing the production rate will mean the insider knows the ins and outs of the Chinese radar industry very intimately. Such a leaker is highly dubious. Particularly if the information leaked reaches such a public exposure. Any real leaks will be tightly controlled so as to not reveal their hand!

This guy is yet another muppet. I think these journos have no real interest in military affairs and technology. They just write whatever to fill the space and sell articles and magazines. The evidence is in the suggestion that the Zhuhai show's two AESA export models for JF-17 were claimed to be for J-20 The reality is the JF-17 potential export AESAs with side modules are probably better than the ones in Su-57. Russian radar technology as witnessed by the Su-35, is well and truly far behind China already. This should come as no surprise seeing as the Russian Federation has had a 20 year lag with all their industries and experts now lost or retired. One of the export AESAs for JF-17 is claimed to be based on the current J-20's AESA unit's technology. The performance difference between the two can be huge once you consider the size of the radome difference between J-20 and JF-17 and the available power of two high thrust engines compared to a single medium thrust. PAF may very well be ordering one of the two available AESA upgrades for both early block JF-17 and Block 3s. If that goes ahead, it indicates their complete satisfaction with such a high cost upgrade for a budget fighter, proving the small power efficient AESAs are leagues ahead of "conventional" units. This would mean J-20's current "placeholder" AESAs are weapons in and of itself.

Also should add this idiot probably doesn't understand the real difference between different production methods for AESA modules and assembled units. Definitely a journalist. Good at pulling shit out of their ass and couldn't get through high school science. Sound similar to Minnie Chan and co.

I'm thinking you are quite likely on thin ice here dude, he's published in "Air International", I suspect his sources are considerably more accurate than your's, but I'm thinking he is a contemporary of Deino's??? I could be wrong and no doubt Deino will clear this up shortly, in any regard there are lots of questions as to how far along the J-20 radar and avionics have come?

No doubt they are well on the way to being "top notch", but as others have insisted, no one with any real knowledge is going to be to terribly specific...