J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[manqiangrexue]

AVIC is not going to tarnish their sterling reputation with some "internet nonsense", no doubt LockMart and Boeing have already incorporated and are incorporating these processes into their current production aircraft,, and it does indeed allow fractionally lighter aircraft, which is a big deal....

but really, no one would dream of claiming the F-35 could be 25% lighter with these new processes,,,, the F-35 is already using state of the art construction processes, the whole center fuse titanium tub is welded robotically,,, giving a very dramatic weight savings and increased strength, along with production efficiencies....

but hey?? these are the interwebs???

You mean AVIC never does interviews that can be found on the internet? LOL. Future US fighters may be much lighter. I don't know the future. But as you claim, F-35 uses machine-welded titanium, NOT 3D-printed titanium, you've already answered your own question for why the 3D-printed weight savings aren't there. Are you in denial that the 3D process exists, cus I see you ignore it every time and go on and on about welding? LOL Anyway, F-35 is extremely multi-role and has a set of stuff no one else has for its vertical lift system. Very difficult to compare.

By the way, it seems to me that you believe no one could possibly do better than the US; the belief that your side is predestined to stay ahead and anyone claiming to do better must be dismissed is not the type of respect that you advocate.

I would have stuck with your gut, and been honest, but hey, that's just me?? but you did state that AVIC was your source,,, my work is done here for the day!

No, I'm a young guy and I have an open mind, especially when provided possibilities and evidences. Sticking to my gut in that circumstance is called being stubborn and putting my head in the sand. But hey, maybe one day, when I get to your age and I get used to China being the world's most powerful and advanced nation, I might also develop a very close-minded attitude when someone tells me that some other nation had outdone us on a key technology. I might even get irate and dismissive and give them false respect to try to cover that:

"I'm sure you have a very lovely beautiful new quantum computer, highly capable machine, no doubt, but boy, I've been using computers since yo mama was in diapers and I can guarantee you that Tianhe-26 is the most powerful machine on the planet. LINPACK put us at second? No no no, that can't be; they wouldn't sully their good name by doing that. Is your computer extra-terrestrial? Haha Mutual respect, definitely; I love all my foreign brothers, but remember, our machine is number one and I reject all evidence otherwise. Let me grow old in peace."

LOLOL Who knows the future, eh?

 

[Deino]

Guys ... are we still discussing J-20-maters or is this more a discussion of material-science, the reliability of certain sources and how to estimate unknown dimensions via calculations vs. eyeballing ???

 

[jobjed]

no doubt LockMart and Boeing have already incorporated and are incorporating these processes into their current production aircraft,, and it does indeed allow fractionally lighter aircraft, which is a big deal....

To our knowledge, LockMart and Boeing have not. And there is a lot of doubt whether they are incorporating a process that they haven't even mastered. Perhaps LockMart and Boeing are harbouring some super duper single-piece manufacturing technology that they're not divulging but from what we know, Chinese airframe manufacturing technology is ahead of the US.

but really, no one would dream of claiming the F-35 could be 25% lighter with these new processes,,,, the F-35 is already using state of the art construction processes, the whole center fuse titanium tub is welded robotically,,, giving a very dramatic weight savings and increased strength, along with production efficiencies....

Of course no one's claiming the F-35 is 25% lighter. It's US-made, not Chinese-made. China is the country manufacturing titanium fuselage components in one piece, not the US. Why would anyone suspect a US-made aircraft of incorporating manufacturing methods exclusive to China?

The ironic thing is you've just illustrated yourself why China has assumed the lead in fighter airframe manufacturing. The US still needs to weld components together because they can't manufacture it in a single piece. China can, and China does. The 80,000-tonne press is exclusive to China and Chinese industry is also in the lead when it comes to development and adoption of 3D-printing technology. Both extreme-strength presses and exquisite 3D-printing technology contribute to China's ability to manufacture components that the US cannot.

There are still a few areas in manufacturing that the US continues to lead. Propellant formulae and high-performance turbine blades come to mind. In other areas like electronics and vehicular powerplants, China has broken even. And in other areas like single-piece forging/printing, China is far ahead of other countries. The manufacture of fighter airframes is one such area where China's strengths in single-piece manufacturing can shine, similar to how high-performance turbofan manufacturing is an area in which the US can shine.... for now.

 

[latenlazy]

Guys ... are we still discussing J-20-maters or is this more a discussion of material-science, the reliability of certain sources and how to estimate unknown dimensions via calculations vs. eyeballing ???

I think we're discussing reasons for believing or not believing particular conjectures or claims about the J-20.

 

[Deino]

I think we're discussing reasons for believing or not believing particular conjectures or claims about the J-20.

No problem with that ... I only lost a bit the step-by-step development of this discussion due to too much school.

 

[latenlazy]

No problem with that ... I only lost a bit the step-by-step development of this discussion due to too much school.

We do get deep into the weeds quite often

 

[Deino]

... looks more like "into the woods"

 

[latenlazy]

... looks more like "into the woods"

I think our exchange of snarky meta commentary is getting awfully close to the tree line

 

[A.Man]

More like: beat the Bushes!

 

[delft]

OT
This asks for a bit of history: Half a century ago US bought scores of C-5A's from Lockheed while the loser of the competition, Boeing, knew nothing better to do than adapting its design into the 747.
C-5A was designed to carry a load of some 80 tons but after a short time the load allowed was reduced to 25 tons because the wings proved to be too weak. A few years later all wings were replaced by stronger ones.
Several years later France got hold of the strongest press in the Western World, 60k tons, by buying it in the Soviet Union.
It's a matter of strategic investment that even half a century ago was not adequately practiced in the US - but there was huge investment in better gas turbines and micro electronics to mention just two important matters. In the current financial circumstances the matter is more serious.