J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[latenlazy]

IMO the question we should consider is whether the new notional BVRAAM -- let's call it PL-XY for now -- will be merely a PL-15 with similar capability (range, seeker etc) but smaller to allow carriage of 6 in total which will likely allow faster development cycle to get into service quicker, or whether it will try to be more ambitious and incorporate other advancements (like dual ARH + ImIR guidance, or HTK) which will inevitably mean development will take longer.

I think newer seeker technologies can (and probably should) be rolled out in phases. What really matters here is the propulsion technology. When the kinematics of a new missile has been finalized is when we should probably start to see a version of that missile in operation.

 

[Blitzo]

I think newer seeker technologies can (and probably should) be rolled out in phases. What really matters here is the propulsion technology. When the kinematics of a new missile has been finalized is when we should probably start to see a version of that missile in operation.

Yes, I think an initial variant having a new more slender airframe, new fins, and maybe new propulsion can be adapted with a minor update to seeker and datalink technology, with further variants to incorporate newer warhead concepts, new guidance concepts etc.

 

[Totoro]

No one cropped fins just to fit more MRAAMs into a weapons bay until the F-22 and AIM-120D either. Modifying a missile to fit a specific carriage clearly isn't unprecedented. Whether it's by folding or cropping fins, or a new derivative missile, that the dimensions of the bay are already so close to fitting 6 missiles makes it a lot more likely that we will find 6 missiles in that weapons bay one way or another sooner or later, especially since missile designs *do* iterate pretty frequently and aren't just frozen after induction. I don't see the rationale behind not making modifications to fit 2 more missiles in the bay when clearly there are better space efficiencies and combat capabilities to be had from doing so.

PL-15 was developed more or less alongside with J-20. Probably designs were frozen in 2005-2010 period. J20 and pl-15 teams surely had requirements shared to them by PLAAF. So PLAAF could have easily said, "we have this and this bay in j20. to tripack the missiles, we need each missile to be this big and not more"

Basically, PL-15 should already be tripackageable IF that was the requirement. If not... then PLAAF is simply content with 4 for some time being and may be working on some other missile (rather than a mere variant of pl-12/15 family) to field in the next 10-20 years.

If you tilt the middle missile by 45 degrees, you can trade more depth for width. I have no idea if it is feasible. But you can, in theory fit three missiles with overall width 100cm and 10cm clearance.

My figures already include the tilt. Best width is maximum span divided by 1.41, as one tilts the missile by 45 degrees.

I think cropped fins is more likely than folded fins, but I would not rule either out.

thing with cropped fins is: pl-15 IS ALREADY that cropped fin variant. sure, fins are also of different shape, but essentially they're made smaller as well, hence "cropped". Yet they still may not be small enough. So why have yet another variant that is cropped sufficiently? Sounds unlikely to me, considering Pl-15 was designed in the timeframe that must have allowed it to be sized perfectly for J-20, IF that was desirable.

Do you guys know Yankee? Pretty credible "big shrimp" when it comes to Chinese military aviation.

What track record does Yankee have? What exactly has he "predicted" during the last 15 years that has later proven to be true? What has he predicted that has been proven to be false?

 

[latenlazy]

PL-15 was developed more or less alongside with J-20. Probably designs were frozen in 2005-2010 period. J20 and pl-15 teams surely had requirements shared to them by PLAAF. So PLAAF could have easily said, "we have this and this bay in j20. to tripack the missiles, we need each missile to be this big and not more"

Basically, PL-15 should already be tripackageable IF that was the requirement. If not... then PLAAF is simply content with 4 for some time being and may be working on some other missile (rather than a mere variant of pl-12/15 family) to field in the next 10-20 years.

Wouldn't be the first time that the PLAAF went with a compromise interim solution with expectations for further developments to hit their more ideal specs down the line. After all, whatever requirements they set for new missiles must meet a number of different requirements, not just how many they could fit into the J-20. If tradeoffs were made to meet some other parameters that does not mean that the desire for the de-prioritized requirements are suddenly discarded and unnecessary.

thing with cropped fins is: pl-15 IS ALREADY that cropped fin variant. sure, fins are also of different shape, but essentially they're made smaller as well, hence "cropped". Yet they still may not be small enough. So why have yet another variant that is cropped sufficiently? Sounds unlikely to me, considering Pl-15 was designed in the timeframe that must have allowed it to be sized perfectly for J-20, IF that was desirable.

The PL-15 has shorter fins than the PL-12, but the PL-15 is also a totally different missile with different kinematics. A cropped fin PL-12 is not the same thing as a PL-15. The PL-15's fin shapes also make it harder to stagger. This suggests to me that the PL-15 we see in front of us has cropped fins not as a result of any effort to shrink its profile for the J-20's bays but as a natural result of its aerodynamics.

 

[Blitzo]

PL-15 was developed more or less alongside with J-20. Probably designs were frozen in 2005-2010 period. J20 and pl-15 teams surely had requirements shared to them by PLAAF. So PLAAF could have easily said, "we have this and this bay in j20. to tripack the missiles, we need each missile to be this big and not more"

Basically, PL-15 should already be tripackageable IF that was the requirement. If not... then PLAAF is simply content with 4 for some time being and may be working on some other missile (rather than a mere variant of pl-12/15 family) to field in the next 10-20 years.

If the only goal was to pack in 6 BVR missiles I'm sure they could've designed a weapon for that, however if they had a certain performance benchmark they wanted out of the missile initially that was only achievable by having a slightly larger missile than they otherwise could've made at the time (due to technology and or urgency), that could very reasonably explain why they adopted a 4 missile loadout at first.

In other words, I'm sure they could've designed PL-15 or a different missile at the time to be 6 packed if they wanted. But other circumstances could have demanded that the missile they ended up with only allowed 4 packed.

 

[latenlazy]

If the only goal was to pack in 6 BVR missiles I'm sure they could've designed a weapon for that, however if they had a certain performance benchmark they wanted out of the missile initially that was only achievable by having a slightly larger missile than they otherwise could've made at the time (due to technology and or urgency), that could very reasonably explain why they adopted a 4 missile loadout at first.

In other words, I'm sure they could've designed PL-15 or a different missile at the time to be 6 packed if they wanted. But other circumstances could have demanded that the missile they ended up with only allowed 4 packed.

You posted this just as I was adding the same point in an edit

 

[latenlazy]

Might as well add another point. If the PLAAF really only cared to have 4 mraam missiles in the J-20's bay why didn't they go with a larger missile design? They clearly seem to have the room for it. If 4 was the intended requirement why not maximize the capabilities and the space afforded by the weapons bay? That the PL-15 is the size it is suggests to me that it's more likely a mid-step to a missile with a slightly smaller profile, enough to squeeze 6 into the J-20's weapons bay, than a missile that was intended to fit 4 within the J-20's weapons bay.

 

[kurutoga]

Tilt the middle missile, keep the other two unchanged. You can trade depth (around the tail fin) for width. The bottom two (40cm squares) can fit in a box with 100cm width. The middle one does not require additional width. You can move the middle missile up and down to adjust for clearance. See attached for the idea (not accurate)

 

[Klon]

We can collaborate on it in this thread.

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinese-military-articles-translation-thread.t5679/page-11

That's somewhat above my abilities.

Although xiabonan mostly summarized it one page back, here's the machine translation of yankeesama's

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. I omitted the photos and gifs as well as some text.

[Chicken Battle Zhuhai] Day X: View Weilong opened the wings and spread the wings, praise the heart and yearning for it!

Although I knew that there were "eggs" early on, because the old ones of the network had to come back to work in advance, we would not be able to stay in Zhuhai. Two days before the public day, the 歼-20 formations continued to perform, proving that the reliability of the 歼-20 fully supported this intensity of flight; waiting for the last day of the air show, the formation of the 歼-20 formation was already a matter of nailing. The question is just how colorful the "eggs" are.

First of all, in the airspace no-show notice updated this morning, after 11:10, the morning ban will end; while the 歼-20 flight show will still start at 10:55, which means its total performance time, and The previous three performances were the same, which meant that the "egg" was at least not reflected by the longer action display, and there was no effort to let the 歼-20 follow the Y-20 formation.

It’s all professional day interviews. This design is awkward... Many big sisters thought that after 11:10, special formation flights will start from 11:11, using 11:11 on November 11 "This moment is a big news that is not bad for a second." [caption]

However, as the first 歼-20 unit of our army to undertake the task of combat readiness, today a certain regiment of the Air Force flight training base still sent all the four 歼-20s of the station to the Southern Theater Air Force Station (78230-78233, I The first 歼-20 troops of the army sent 78278 歼-20 as a backup machine). As an important unit to promote the formation of the new combat capability of our military, the 歼-20 detachment of the flight training base is not only to complete the air show mission of Zhuhai Air Show, but also to verify the rapid deployment of the 歼-20 off-site and the low-altitude penetration at sea. The important mission of many tactical subjects such as assault.

Head of the team leader Chen Qiqiang (Air Force 2013 Su-30 group "Golden Helmet" winner, then the deputy chief of staff of the group) [caption]

For the first time, he led a team to Russia to participate in an international military competition. Wang Zhen, who won the second place in the "Air Dart-2014" group (when he was the flight captain) [caption]

They are all old drivers, and they fly a few times before and after Zhuhai. They are already familiar with the airspace, so even if the weather is worse than the first day of the air show, they will not delay their play. It was only the limitation of the length of time, which made the formation of the four-machine formation tens of seconds after the opening ceremony. The formation team climbed off the scene and could not help but worry. This is not the same as the previous days, only the two-machine performance, the egg is this. ?

However, when it was too late, as the 歼-20 long machine formation turned to hover, even if the live video could not be as clear as the photo, many people saw the main bomb door opened by 歼-20; then they could look at it. The 霹雳-10 blue training bullet that protruded from the side bomb chamber was bombed, and then it was a complete "squatting chest" - the main bomb cabin was filled with four 霹雳-15 blue training bombs, and they lived together!

When the big picture came out, the hot spots followed, and many discussions about the 歼-20 supporting weapons were suddenly brought up. In fact, in the discussion in the early years, the 歼-20 main bomb chamber accommodated four 霹雳-15s as over-the-horizon combat weapons. It is also a consensus, but some friends still feel that there are a little less, six in the middle. It is king.

The prototype 2002 opened the picture of the bomb bay, paying attention to the two 霹雳-15s on one side of the bomb bay (one of which was not equipped with a wing), and two ejection pylons on the other side. [caption]

The 霹雳-15 was first exposed in July 2011, when a 歼-11B at the trial base returned to Shen Fei for modification, and the 霹雳-15 flying training bomb was mounted for flight test. At this time, the size and aerodynamic layout of the missile are basically the same as the current 霹雳-15, indicating that the design details of the missile at that time are basically determined. And seven or eight years ago, it was necessary to meet the range requirement of 150km. The diameter was not too big, and it was close to the ceiling of the domestic solid rocket engine technical strength.

Note that the shape of the wing and tail are basically the same as the current 霹雳-15. [caption]

If six 霹雳-15s are required, the main bomb compartment must be widened, and the resulting design changes will have a significant impact on the overall performance. Therefore, although the four seem to be somewhat less, they are also the inevitable result of weighing various indicators. The 霹雳-15, which is almost simultaneously exposed to the 歼-20 and has a relatively smooth technical development, can guarantee that the 歼-20 will not be available in the critical stage of the initial combat force formation, and become an important part of the 歼-20's deterrence.

With the emergence of the next generation of active radar-guided air-to-air missiles optimized for stealth targets and maneuverability, the 歼-20 is not far from the target of six mid-range bombs. Now, everyone is waiting for the official time to announce the 歼-20 launching 霹雳-15 screen. After all, the Su-57 has already robbed the first to open the airfield, and the empty bombs have all hit the target. It doesn't matter if you let it go!

The rest follows.

 

[Klon]

At this point, the side door is closed and the 霹雳-10 extends out of the frame with its launcher, minimizing drag and stealth losses. [caption]

Of course, according to our habits, it may be more difficult to put the map on the side of the bombing box - 10; after all, the 霹雳-10 has not only been decrypted, but the Zhuhai Air Show has gone on two occasions. This time in the "Eggs" of the 歼-20, it again demonstrated the working mode of the side bombs like the McDonald's straw box, and proved its structural rigidity and reliability through the motorized display.

I think, the most important advantage of this exquisite design is to solve the problem of playing rockets in the fourth generation. [caption]

There is now a problem with the cannon. In the current state of the 歼-20, although the installation position of the cannon is reserved, due to the weight loss and the ablation of the stealth material by the muzzle flame, the door is completely different from the aircraft of our military's current model. It won't appear, but it basically does not hinder the 歼-20 to complete the current combat missions - do you really want to see 歼-20 with unguided weapons to hit the ground?

There is such a head pointing, if the door is good, the arcade mode is not allowed. [caption]

After watching the flight performances of these days, it is estimated that many people have also found that the sound of the 歼-20 is not the same as that of the 歼-10, Su-27 and other fighters using the AL-31F series engine. On the one hand, this can be explained by the same "sound source, different speakers, different effects", but the more important reason is that the engine used in the 歼-20 has been improved by domestic independent technology (that is, the so-called "philosophical meaning" Guofa"), the thrust has increased; this makes the 歼-20 overcome the impact of weight gain in the process of developing from the verification machine to the prototype to the pre-production aircraft, and still maintain excellent maneuverability.

From the "stunning glimpse" left in the air show in 2016, not only will it perform for three consecutive days in 2018, but also open the bomb room to display the airborne weapons, and the 歼-20 will increase in the air show, showing not only Only the People's Air Force is more open and confident, and it is the progress of the 歼-20 to form combat capabilities. As everyone basically adapted to the "歼-20 is really an active equipment," it also officially finalized and entered the promotion of other combat forces.

Adapting to a sword that is difficult for the enemy to resist, this is also very important for the swordman. [caption]

Therefore, the next exciting moment that the 歼-20 brings to us, perhaps the stereotyped “Weilong” belonging to a certain brigade of the Air Force Aviation in the Eastern Theater, is exposed to people’s eyes. Will it be the National Day military parade in 2019? A decade ago, the J-10 debuted at the Zhuhai Air Show. On the "0910 Project" nine years ago, the J-10 was bombed in the form of three five-machine formations... "1019 Project" On the 歼-20, will it be open for reading as it is today?

Hey, in fact, everyone's bottom line is estimated to be four sets of five... Although I still want to see the 7-machine formation, after all, is the 70th anniversary of the National Day! It is best to fly out from the back of the tower to the Monument to the People's Heroes and pull out the 7 traces of smoke! [caption]

About fitting 6 missiles, another person

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it's impossible with the current width of 20.3 cm and that it will be a new missile (PL-20?). pb19980515 also

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a new missile (of which 6 could fit) is in development and posts a page from a study showing folding fins.

Also, is yankee saying/implying that J-20 weapons firing footage will be released?