J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[Untoldpain]

Get on it mods.

 

[Inst]

Yup, this conversation is off-topic and is best discussed elsewhere.

And no, China has never been a superpower through history, as the term implies global dominance as opposed to merely regional dominance. If you look at Chinese history, much of Korea used to be a Chinese colony. Northern Vietnam used to be a Chinese colony. The history of China is rather one of high precociousness, but the neighbors managing to catch up and trap China within its own territorial confines. The idea of constantly falling and climbing back up can't be seen in a vacuum, it also has to be seen vis-a-vis other great civilizations and in the context of global powers. In that context, while China came ahead greatly when both Rome and Han fell, it began falling behind when the Mongols defeated the Song; the Song Dynasty was world-leading as a single rationalized polity, but the Ming Dynasty was being eclipsed by developing European powers during its final stages.

Regarding the J-20, I think the consensus is that while the J-20's canards don't make it unstealthy, neither does it make it as stealthy as stealth tailed fighters. And yes, it's possible for the J-20 to be actually less stealthy than the Su-57. The inlets create a stealth problem from below, certainly, but the tail, unlike the J-20's canards, is co-planar with the main wing. I'd say the limitation on the Su-57's stealth is less the basic design and more the fact that the Russians don't want it to be that stealthy.

On the other hand, if you understand why I keep on ranting about tailfinless J-20s, if the J-20 lost its tailfins and ventral strakes, it could certainly be stealthier than other extant stealth fighters, although it would be an engineering challenge to maintain acceptable levels of control authority.

 

[yt19967]

And? Historically speaking, China has fallen progressively behind the West since antiquity. Qin Shihuang's destruction of the Sinitic Kingdoms also entailed the destruction of Mohist proto-science, that China passed the West during the Tang was not it was superior, but that its Dark Age was relatively short and shallow.

Each of the barbarian invasions since the Northern and Southern Dynasties have gotten worse. The Mongols were very close to committing straight genocide against the Han Chinese, and the Mongol cataclysm destroyed the Song Enlightenment. The Manchus, in contrast to the Mongols, were semi-Sinified and forced a backward, overly traditionalist interpretation of the Confucian classics down China's throat. The Japanese were semi-Westernized and if they had succeeded, and without American intervention they would have done so, they would have been able to wipe out China as a cultural entity, given their modernized status.

All I see here are the old classic Sino-Triumphalism, which destroyed every Chinese state in the past. To date, China's population mass has allowed it to survive foreign conquest, albeit often worse-for-wear, but that population advantage is about to end. That's the problem with Chinese chauvinists in general. You'll brag endlessly about your 5,000 years of history when the culture is backwards and the society is garbage. China's situation has improved dramatically, but to let you guys loose and in charge is not unlike Wilhelm II's disposal of Bismarck.

The current success of China is not so much a matter of civilizational inevitability--the end of China as a culture and civilization was in sight for the modernizers of the ROC period-- but a matter of human agency, of the choices made by both Chinese and non-Chinese actors. If you jingoists had gotten your way, the KMT would have won the Chinese Civil War and China would now be somewhere between India and Turkey; one a failed state that failed to modernize despite 70 years of peace, tranquility, and democracy, the other a failed state that tried to modernize and then got stuck in the Middle-Income-Trap with a bevy of undereducated peasants putting populists in power.

Stop talking about Chinese history.
In fact, you know nothing about Chinese history and Chinese civilization.

 

[manqiangrexue]

Yup, this conversation is off-topic and is best discussed elsewhere.

And no, China has never been a superpower through history, as the term implies global dominance as opposed to merely regional dominance. If you look at Chinese history, much of Korea used to be a Chinese colony. Northern Vietnam used to be a Chinese colony. The history of China is rather one of high precociousness, but the neighbors managing to catch up and trap China within its own territorial confines. The idea of constantly falling and climbing back up can't be seen in a vacuum, it also has to be seen vis-a-vis other great civilizations and in the context of global powers. In that context, while China came ahead greatly when both Rome and Han fell, it began falling behind when the Mongols defeated the Song; the Song Dynasty was world-leading as a single rationalized polity, but the Ming Dynasty was being eclipsed by developing European powers during its final stages.

Regarding the J-20, I think the consensus is that while the J-20's canards don't make it unstealthy, neither does it make it as stealthy as stealth tailed fighters. And yes, it's possible for the J-20 to be actually less stealthy than the Su-57. The inlets create a stealth problem from below, certainly, but the tail, unlike the J-20's canards, is co-planar with the main wing. I'd say the limitation on the Su-57's stealth is less the basic design and more the fact that the Russians don't want it to be that stealthy.

On the other hand, if you understand why I keep on ranting about tailfinless J-20s, if the J-20 lost its tailfins and ventral strakes, it could certainly be stealthier than other extant stealth fighters, although it would be an engineering challenge to maintain acceptable levels of control authority.

Well, I guess you can't teach an old (or stupid) dog new tricks. I told you to actually reply to me when talking to me but you couldn't muster up the spirit, and then I gave you the big picture of how China always rises back up unlike any other and you're still stuck in your imaginary argument where someone said to you that China was undefeated in history. That's 0 for 2; nobody can help you anymore, little guy... Let your imagination take you away LOL

As for the definition of superpower, dominating your region is as superpower as it got thousands of years ago; complaining that that's not a real superpower is like complaining that Isaac Newton wasn't a real genius because he didn't build rockets and jets like today's scientists can.

Su-57 with exposed engine fans and Su-27 style-underbelly might be stealthier than J-20? OK cool. Shit, H-16 might be more stealthy than F-22 going on that LOL. Yes, J-20 would be more stealthy if it lost its tail-fins and strakes. It'd be even more stealthy if it lost its wings, fuselage and cockpit...Any jet is more stealthy when it loses anything. What's your point?

 

[Deino]

Guys ... it is enough

 

[FactsPlease]

Just report him (Inst) - what the hell his perception toward China & its history got anything to do with J20?

 

[Inst]

This came into play with a discussion of the fan nicknames for the J-20, whether jingoistic or comic.

The other thing is, if we're discussing the radar, it is possible that the Chinese haven't actually gotten the desired performance out of their latest AESAs. The JF-17 radar, iirc, has a rather underwhelming radar detection range for the since of the unit. In theory, the latest J-11 AESA should be able to achieve 450 km vs 0 dBsm detection range, but that's a claim, not verified evidence.

 

[Stratton]

Without going into any detail, the latest Pentagon report says that China is (predictably) having trouble with engines for J-20 and FC-31, but also the AESA radars. All that said, if you throw enough money and engineering talent at problem it will get sorted. China has no shortage of bright, young engineers.

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[Icmer]

Without going into any detail, the latest Pentagon report says that China is (predictably) having trouble with engines for J-20 and FC-31, but also the AESA radars. All that said, if you throw enough money and engineering talent at problem it will get sorted. China has no shortage of bright, young engineers.

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I literally posted this a page ago...

 

[Icmer]

This came into play with a discussion of the fan nicknames for the J-20, whether jingoistic or comic.

Only because you were arrogant enough to interpret the "dragon" nomenclature as a sign of inherent, endemic Chinese jingoism which is apparently dooming China, completely ignoring how normal it sounds in Mandarin given the cultural context...