J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

[Air Force Brat]

The difference is that claim is physically plausible.

Any stealth aircraft can be detected, but "tracked, and targeted" is another matter altogether,, I HONESTLY do NOT believe that the Chinese are able to "track and target" the F-22 at present, if that were the case they would Not be spending the big bucks on the J-20, the fact that they are, and that they are investing so much intellectual capital, leads me to believe they see the value of L/O aircraft, and being able to operate with a very low probability of intercept!

 

[manqiangrexue]

Any stealth aircraft can be detected, but "tracked, and targeted" is another matter altogether,, I HONESTLY do NOT believe that the Chinese are able to "track and target" the F-22 at present, if that were the case they would Not be spending the big bucks on the J-20, the fact that they are, and that they are investing so much intellectual capital, leads me to believe they see the value of L/O aircraft, and being able to operate with a very low probability of intercept!

By that logic, if you had shields and armor that worked, you wouldn't spend money on swords.

That said, "track and target" is not black and white. Under what circumstances can it be achieved? What distance? What is the reliability/failure rate? How difficult is the radar to operate? What is the quality of the lock? Is it a death sentence, or is it quite easy for the aircraft to shake with maneuvers/other tactics? Tech is always improving, both in stealth and counter-stealth, especially in China.

 

[AssassinsMace]

Let me take the short cut and say the Indians are full of it as usual. If the J-20 wasn't stealthy, do you think the PLAAF would dare fly it near the border for people to find out? What would be the detection range of an MKI radar for a stealth aircraft? I don't know all that RCS calculation stuff but stealth reduces detection range not make it invisible. Either aircraft would have to be flying close enough to the border where it would set off alarms. How did the MKI know it was a J-20? Was it within visual range? Over who's territory where it would set off alarm bells in order to do that? I'm sure it would be according to the Indians China invading its airspace and not the other way around yet have we seen newspaper headlines as such. Meaning the incident never happened or they saw some other aircraft (maybe even their own) and they're saying it was the J-20. Where are the photographs? How convenient the Indians didn't take one giving the J-20 the bird while inverted.

This is the military that was filled with paranoia that China was sending drones into India because they saw two weird lights in the sky night after night when it turned out to be just two other planets in the solar system. When one of India's important rocket experiments failed miserably Indians charged it was Stuxnet and blamed China for planting it. But then you have people giving credit for how wonderful they said it worked against the Iranians to the Israelis and Americans. So wouldn't that mean the Israelis and Americans sabotaged India's rocket?

 

[Deleted member 13312]

Any stealth aircraft can be detected, but "tracked, and targeted" is another matter altogether,, I HONESTLY do NOT believe that the Chinese are able to "track and target" the F-22 at present, if that were the case they would Not be spending the big bucks on the J-20, the fact that they are, and that they are investing so much intellectual capital, leads me to believe they see the value of L/O aircraft, and being able to operate with a very low probability of intercept!

To be fair, the Chinese were also rather opaque when they released their statement regarding the F-22s, merely stating that they "tracked" them. In that measure there is good reason to believe them, China has invested in VHF radars that can at least detect VLO aircraft but cannot generate quality weapons track.
As such China can possibly use a mixture of both VHF and normal radar tracking to counter stealth aircrafts. The VHF radars to locate the general location and vector in fighters and air defences to it, and E/F radars at close range to track weapons to it. Therein I think lies the greater point, China and Russia are actively researching ways to counter stealth with new and existing systems, whereas the West so far have not shown any great interests in doing so.

 

[Pmichael]

Any stealth aircraft can be detected, but "tracked, and targeted" is another matter altogether,, I HONESTLY do NOT believe that the Chinese are able to "track and target" the F-22 at present, if that were the case they would Not be spending the big bucks on the J-20, the fact that they are, and that they are investing so much intellectual capital, leads me to believe they see the value of L/O aircraft, and being able to operate with a very low probability of intercept!

How would the J-20 change the fact that they can't "track and target" the F-22? Which I think it's a rather dubious claim with the massive improvement in radar technolgy in the past decade.

 

[plawolf]

Let me take the short cut and say the Indians are full of it as usual. If the J-20 wasn't stealthy, do you think the PLAAF would dare fly it near the border for people to find out? What would be the detection range of an MKI radar for a stealth aircraft? I don't know all that RCS calculation stuff but stealth reduces detection range not make it invisible. Either aircraft would have to be flying close enough to the border where it would set off alarms. How did the MKI know it was a J-20? Was it within visual range? Over who's territory where it would set off alarm bells in order to do that? I'm sure it would be according to the Indians China invading its airspace and not the other way around yet have we seen newspaper headlines as such. Meaning the incident never happened or they saw some other aircraft (maybe even their own) and they're saying it was the J-20. Where are the photographs? How convenient the Indians didn't take one giving the J-20 the bird while inverted.

I would say the changes of an MKI having detected a J20 during recent exercises would have been zero.

Let’s not forget that this would have been after the PLAAF received deliviers if it’s first Su35s.

I would say one of the first things the PLAAF would have done with them was to see at what ranges their radars could detect and track a J20.

The Su35 has a superior radar to the MKI, so the PLAAF would have a very reliable maximum detection range the MKI could achieve against the J20 in all aspects.

The MKI, being a Flanker with huge RCS, would have been detected by the J20 long before it could possibly see the J20. So there is absolutely no way the Chinese would have allowed one to get remotely close enough to a J20 for it to detect the J20.

Similarly, the Israelis Phalcan AWACS operated by India was originally developed for China before the US scuppered the deal. But the Chinese would have had a very intimate knowledge of its performance parameters form the years the two sides were working on the system, and thus would have been able to work out its likely detection ranges against the J20.

 

[Air Force Brat]

To be fair, the Chinese were also rather opaque when they released their statement regarding the F-22s, merely stating that they "tracked" them. In that measure there is good reason to believe them, China has invested in VHF radars that can at least detect VLO aircraft but cannot generate quality weapons track.
As such China can possibly use a mixture of both VHF and normal radar tracking to counter stealth aircrafts. The VHF radars to locate the general location and vector in fighters and air defences to it, and E/F radars at close range to track weapons to it. Therein I think lies the greater point, China and Russia are actively researching ways to counter stealth with new and existing systems, whereas the West so far have not shown any great interests in doing so.

Yes the Chinese were also rather opaque, and I would be highly inclined to believe they are able to "detect" the F-22, and far less inclined to believe they were able to "track" it ? on the other hand the Chinese appear to be very interested in developing similar capability in the J-20? yes or no, maybe not?? after all we've seen evidence of less than 2 dozen completed J-20 aircraft??

I happen to believe the J-20 is on track to be the number 1 fighter aircraft in China, precisely because they have not found an effective counter to the F-22 or F-35.

Reality is always best reflected by what others are doing and spending vast amounts of money to counter, I'm really only interested in truth, when there are two opposing viewpoints only 1 can be true...

 

[manqiangrexue]

I happen to believe the J-20 is on track to be the number 1 fighter aircraft in China, precisely because they have not found an effective counter to the F-22 or F-35.

As I've said before and many other members understand, if this logic holds, then that means that any civilization that has constructed shields and armor that could resist enemy blades would not invest in constructing swords and spears of their own. It also means that any country with viable SAMs to defend against enemy legacy aircraft/incoming missiles would not have programs to develop non-stealthy aircraft or missiles themselves. In the real world, armed forces develop offensive weapons even if they have effective ways to counter enemy offense and they will also prefer to have several options to counter enemy assets if at all possible, hence the parallel development of SAMs and fighters/missiles, guns and bullet-proof armor, stealth and counter-stealth, etc... This once again renders your logic (that if someone had a working anti-stealth radar, he wouldn't want stealth fighters of his own) demonstrably false and ignoring posts that point out the glaring defects in your logic won't make your logic more sound.

And as I've said before, "effective" is a very wriggly word.

 

[MastanKhan]

Any stealth aircraft can be detected, but "tracked, and targeted" is another matter altogether,, I HONESTLY do NOT believe that the Chinese are able to "track and target" the F-22 at present, if that were the case they would Not be spending the big bucks on the J-20, the fact that they are, and that they are investing so much intellectual capital, leads me to believe they see the value of L/O aircraft, and being able to operate with a very low probability of intercept!

Hi,

Thank you for your comments---.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Hi,

Thank you for your comments---.

You're very welcome, and thank you for your likes.