The J-31’s belly bay is about the same size as the J-20’s.
J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI
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SteelBird
Colonel
I just don't understand, if J-31 has them same size (or similar size) as J-20's, so why need the later?
SinoSoldier
Colonel
I'm pretty sure by "door kicker" Yang Wei meant a weapon that can pave the way for less-capable 4th-generation aircraft. I.e. an air superiority fighter like the J-20.
Not following your question. Are you asking why there’s a contest between the J-31 and J-20 as the basis for China’s carrier fighters?
My layman understanding of kick the door down (from mainly Western articles/media) is to take out mainly SAM sites. This means:
- First day of war,
- Against near peer or superior peer with credible SAM sites,
- Importance of keeping element of surprise is high, hence LO with weapons in internal bays.
I assume that SEAD missions would need pretty substantial sized SEAD and general A2G bombs to be effective.
After the SAM sites are brought down or sanitized enough, then 4th gen aircraft can more safely enter the arena.
Thus based on the above definition of kick the door down I presume FC-31 wouldn't be able to perform it on its own since its bomb bays are presumably smaller.
Air superiority can be handled by the FC-31 after the so called first day of war. In fact A2A configured flankers can do it too.
On the other hand if kicking the door down means to be the spearhead in front of 4th gen fighters then yes both J-20 and FC-31 can do the job.
I'm assuming in terms of the bay depth and bomb diameter, not length. Has there been pictures where depth could be compared between the two?
To admit I would be careful with such comparisons for several reasons:
1. so far we know only images of the J-20's bay and we have nothing on the FC-31. Even more we lack a certain measurement of the FC-31's bay since all images from the side are given without any reference which can be used to deduct the dimensions.
2. the diagram for the FC-31 is IMO most unreliable: Showing six PL-15/-15-sized AAMs or four CM-400AKG AShMs are highly speculative if not plain wrong (again IMO)
Therefore to assume the FC-31's bay is larger, wider, deeper or whatever are IMO at best pure-fan-boy hopes and far off any reality. Why should the J-20 as a much larger and heavier fighter have a smaller bay than the FC-31??
Deino
plawolf
Lieutenant General
If the J10 and J16 can carry the same sized missiles, why need the later?
From a raw performance POV, the J20 should trump the J31 in terms of range and endurance, which will be critically important for a carrier bird, especially a 5th gen, as you don’t want them leashed to slow move and non-stealth tankers (although the USN is working towards addressing this with its work on LO unmanned tankers).
The J20 also has the WS15 in advanced stages of development, while we know of no comparable engine in the works for the J31.
That means while the J31 might perform similarly to the J20 currently, once the J20 gets the WS15, it should move into a different league in terms of flight characteristics. The J31 has no such upgrade on the horizon.
Also, since the J20 is bigger, with correspondingly more thurst, having the same sized bay means the J31 pays a compararively bigger penalty to its performance from having the bay compared to the J20.
It would be similar to hanging the same weapons load on a J10 and J16, the smaller J10 would take a bigger performance hit than the bigger J16.
Since the bays are permanent, that performance hit is also locked in.
The main reason the America F22 and F35 can achieve their kinetic performances are because of their monstrously powerful engines. With a similar layout but significant weaker engines, it would take quite something for the J31 to match the former in terms of agility.
So all in all, I am pretty confident that the J20, even as is, will be better than the J31 in WVR, and once it gets the WS15, it will absolutely dominate.
In a stealth v stealth encounter, where both radar ranges and BVRAAM missile effectiveness will be significantly impaired by the opponent’s stealth, I believe we are on the cusp of entering another golden age of dogfighting, since WVR is where I think most pure 5th gen encounters will be settled.
As such, I feel that raw kinetic performance is going to increasingly matter more than it has since the introduction of BVR going forwards for 5th gens.
I feel this is where America has dropped the ball somewhat with the F35, because when the JSF programme was started and design selected, no one else looked anywhere close to fielding a rival 5th gen.
So the F35 was expected to just easily walk all over legacy fighters in BVR (it doesn’t even have the capacity to carry dogfighting missiles without sacrificing BVRAAMs) and so focused mostly on strike.
With the same layout and weaker engines, albeit with more focus on air combat, I think the J31 would be happy to match the F35 in a dogfight, but the F22 and J20 are in a different league in terms of kinetic performance.
That’s why the PLAAF picked the J20 and has show zero interest in the J31.
The J31 has advantages compared to the J20 for carrier aviation, but the raw performance advantage of the J20, especially the WS15 versions, should still be seriously considered.
I would prefer the PLAN go for both the J31 and J20 rather than just the J31.
It would be like the performance difference between a F14+F18 carrier air wing against one with only F18s.
Door-kicker doesn't necessarily imply that it is used against SAMs. It also includes aerial assets such as AWACs and EW planes, which form the air defense network. The only air-to-ground munition the current version of J-20 could carry are probably small diameter bombs.
How China’s New Stealth Fighter Could Soon Surpass the US F-22 Raptor
China’s Chengdu J-20 fifth generation air superiority fighter first entered service in early 2017, providing the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) with an analog to the U.S. F-22 Raptor. The platform was the first fifth generation fighter to enter service anywhere in the world outside the United States, and came equipped with state-of-the-art radar evading capabilities, avionics, and air-to-air missiles. The fighter’s canard configuration served to further enhance stealth capabilities while maintaining high levels of maneuverability. With less than a year having passed since the J-20 was inducted into service, the next generation platform has already received its first set of upgrades aimed at enhancing its combat performance. These upgrades are but the first of many to come, which could well lead the J-20 to become a world leading aerial warfare platform.
A notable shortcoming of prototypes and early production models of the J-20 was their use of fourth generation engines, the WS-10G, which were heavily based on the Russian AL-31 used to power fourth generation heavy fighters. The platform lacked an engine comparable to the F119 used by the F-22 Raptor, leaving it underpowered and significantly less capable in an air superiority role. China’s military aviation industries have since the induction of the fighter however , with analogous capabilities to the F119. These new and superior engines will be installed on future fighters and represent a significant upgrade over previous capabilities. Reports from a number of analysts indicate that several J-20 fighters which took part in major military drills at the Zhurihe base in Inner Mongolia in mid 2017 were already equipped with the WS-15 for testing purposes.
Other upgrades for the J-20 include improved software, improvements to radar capabilities, enhanced avionics and superior electronic equipment. A lead engineer working on the J-20, speaking to the People’s Daily, said his team were making further modifications to the elite fighter’s engine, stealth coating and weapons bay. This would improve the platform’s flight performance, survivability, and firepower. The rate at which the J-20 has received upgrades is particularly significant when compared to the rate of upgrades for the F-22 Raptor, which has yet to complete installation of its second set of upgrades after almost 13 years of service. Upgrading the J-20’s weapons bay in a number of months, for example, represents an accomplishment the U.S. Air Force has attempted for years to achieve to improve the firepower of the F-22 and allow it to operate more advanced air to air missiles. F-22 such as the Raptor Agile Capability Release have taken years, not months, to implement and arguably are less significant than the upgrades China was able to so quickly apply to its J-20. By the time the U.S. Raptors have all been equipped with the new 180 km range AIM-120D air to air missiles, the J-20 is likely to have already begun to operate the new ramjet powered variants of the PL-21 and PL-12D air to air missiles with . The pace at which the Chinese fighter’s capabilities are improving far exceeds those of the F-22.
The U.S. Air Force’s ability to improve the capabilities of the Raptor is limited largely due to the termination of production of the fighter, meaning it is no longer a “live program” undergoing continuous development in the same way as the F-35, F-15, and J-20. The age of the Raptor’s design, meaning it uses software and computer architecture developed in the 1990s with a core processor speed of just 25MHz, further complicates upgrades – causing particular issues when attempting to equip the fighter with newly developed weapons systems. The J-20’s far newer computer architecture is far easier to work with for China’s own military. While the J-20 was considered unable to match the capabilities of the F-22 upon its induction into service, the far faster rate at which upgrades can be applied are set to rapidly narrow the gap and could well lead the Chinese fighter to soon surpass the capabilities of its U.S. counterpart and in future go on to transcend them entirely. With both fighters representing the elite of each country’s respective aerial warfare capabilities, this will inevitably have significant implications for the balance of power in the Pacific.
Abraham Ait is a military analyst specializing in Asia-Pacific security and the role of air power in modern warfare. He is chief editor of .
China’s Chengdu J-20 fifth generation air superiority fighter first entered service in early 2017, providing the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) with an analog to the U.S. F-22 Raptor. The platform was the first fifth generation fighter to enter service anywhere in the world outside the United States, and came equipped with state-of-the-art radar evading capabilities, avionics, and air-to-air missiles. The fighter’s canard configuration served to further enhance stealth capabilities while maintaining high levels of maneuverability. With less than a year having passed since the J-20 was inducted into service, the next generation platform has already received its first set of upgrades aimed at enhancing its combat performance. These upgrades are but the first of many to come, which could well lead the J-20 to become a world leading aerial warfare platform.
A notable shortcoming of prototypes and early production models of the J-20 was their use of fourth generation engines, the WS-10G, which were heavily based on the Russian AL-31 used to power fourth generation heavy fighters. The platform lacked an engine comparable to the F119 used by the F-22 Raptor, leaving it underpowered and significantly less capable in an air superiority role. China’s military aviation industries have since the induction of the fighter however , with analogous capabilities to the F119. These new and superior engines will be installed on future fighters and represent a significant upgrade over previous capabilities. Reports from a number of analysts indicate that several J-20 fighters which took part in major military drills at the Zhurihe base in Inner Mongolia in mid 2017 were already equipped with the WS-15 for testing purposes.
Other upgrades for the J-20 include improved software, improvements to radar capabilities, enhanced avionics and superior electronic equipment. A lead engineer working on the J-20, speaking to the People’s Daily, said his team were making further modifications to the elite fighter’s engine, stealth coating and weapons bay. This would improve the platform’s flight performance, survivability, and firepower. The rate at which the J-20 has received upgrades is particularly significant when compared to the rate of upgrades for the F-22 Raptor, which has yet to complete installation of its second set of upgrades after almost 13 years of service. Upgrading the J-20’s weapons bay in a number of months, for example, represents an accomplishment the U.S. Air Force has attempted for years to achieve to improve the firepower of the F-22 and allow it to operate more advanced air to air missiles. F-22 such as the Raptor Agile Capability Release have taken years, not months, to implement and arguably are less significant than the upgrades China was able to so quickly apply to its J-20. By the time the U.S. Raptors have all been equipped with the new 180 km range AIM-120D air to air missiles, the J-20 is likely to have already begun to operate the new ramjet powered variants of the PL-21 and PL-12D air to air missiles with . The pace at which the Chinese fighter’s capabilities are improving far exceeds those of the F-22.
The U.S. Air Force’s ability to improve the capabilities of the Raptor is limited largely due to the termination of production of the fighter, meaning it is no longer a “live program” undergoing continuous development in the same way as the F-35, F-15, and J-20. The age of the Raptor’s design, meaning it uses software and computer architecture developed in the 1990s with a core processor speed of just 25MHz, further complicates upgrades – causing particular issues when attempting to equip the fighter with newly developed weapons systems. The J-20’s far newer computer architecture is far easier to work with for China’s own military. While the J-20 was considered unable to match the capabilities of the F-22 upon its induction into service, the far faster rate at which upgrades can be applied are set to rapidly narrow the gap and could well lead the Chinese fighter to soon surpass the capabilities of its U.S. counterpart and in future go on to transcend them entirely. With both fighters representing the elite of each country’s respective aerial warfare capabilities, this will inevitably have significant implications for the balance of power in the Pacific.
Abraham Ait is a military analyst specializing in Asia-Pacific security and the role of air power in modern warfare. He is chief editor of .
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