J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

Status
Not open for further replies.

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Just some feedback. This kind of post, where you tell someone what "Chinese military watching" is and how it should be done, comes across as trying to force the frame of the conversation and sometimes the conclusions. Similarly for talk about a "consensus" (who agreed and when?).
Coincidentally, I think it was one of your posts on reddit that introduced me to this forum.
@manqiangrexue Sorry for misspelling your username above.

Oh I absolutely am trying to frame the conversation.

Chinese military news and developments is a mess at the best of times, but if we apply a few consistent strategies to it we can help to create a useful discussion that can rule out things which are probably definitely not true while keeping in things which may be possible but not ruling out things which are not yet disproven
 

Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Oh I absolutely am trying to frame the conversation.

Chinese military news and developments is a mess at the best of times, but if we apply a few consistent strategies to it we can help to create a useful discussion that can rule out things which are probably definitely not true while keeping in things which may be possible but not ruling out things which are not yet disproven
I don't necessarily disagree with the above. I disagree with you posting this while arguing with someone as a method of pushing your framing, assumptions and conclusions. It's also condescending.
I'm not referring just to three posts back, but your general habit of doing it.
I won't derail the thread further with this.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Just some feedback. This kind of post, where you tell someone what "Chinese military watching" is and how it should be done, comes across as trying to force the frame of the conversation and sometimes the conclusions. Similarly for talk about a "consensus" (who agreed and when?).
Coincidentally, I think it was one of your posts on reddit that introduced me to this forum.
@manqiangrexue Sorry for misspelling your username above.
I yes, I did not see that. So

1. Was the claim that JF-17's AESA export radar performed on par with F-35 radar despite being smaller? I don't think that was the claim. I think they said that it was equivalent, which I interpreted to mean on technological parity with F-35 radar but smaller so scaled down. Thus, it could be an equivalent of the F-35's radar even though it would not perform as well in a direct comparison. The claim was also vague so if some performance parameters were there, you could claim equivalence; of the ones that aren't there, you might argue that they're less important. If it consumed 1/3 the power and performed 1/3 as well, you might also say they are equivalent. There's no solid, exact claim to accept or dismiss. So I believe that the claim is very possible at least along some of these lines and aspects. The specific details on how they compare and how the conclusion that they are equals is clearly not known.

2. Sino EM is a very recent design compared to EMALS. EMALS has many known issues including low reliability (1/400 fail rate), lack of power, causing abnormal vibration of external fuel tanks, etc... When Yin Zhuo said the Chinese design was superior, he may say that because the Chinese ground version is a newer design that doesn't have these inherent flaws, thus, he could conclude that it is a much better system. However, it is on the ground while EMALS in on a carrier so whether the Chinese EM starts to develop issues when put out at sea remains to be seen. I don't know if EMALS also didn't have these problems on the ground but they became noticeable at sea or if those issues were always there and they just decided to move forward hoping they could fix/ameliorate them on the carrier. But given America's generous transparency regarding issues and China's meteoric rise in technology and design, I absolutely do not dismiss that the Chinese could have come up with a newer and inherently superior design.

3. J-20's weight discussion goes like this: a semi-trustworthy source said 15 tonne range, meaning 15-16 tonnes. That was well below what everyone had thought and although nobody takes it as an official guarantee, we began thinking of how it might be possible. There are manufacturing updates to decrease weight such as 3D printing and material sciences (aircraft composition 20% titanium vs 40% in F-22, lighter, thinner new RAM) to reduce weight but also, the design was different. Larger empty fuel tanks further support the possibility that density could be less than that of the F-22 (and those tanks don't have to be fully loaded when on missions). Smaller wings (rely more on body for lift), smaller pelikan fins (including the ventral fins) were all considered as well as the lighter engines without stealth TVC nozzles. Then we thought there could be design compromises and sacrifices to reduce weight further, trading away capabilities for a lighter aircraft and those capabilities could be added later when the WS-15 gives more thrust. So structures could be lightened if strike capability was removed (lightening the load-bearing structures that could hold large bombs) and the gun could have been removed as well. Certainly, the engineering team had more ideas than we did by the boat-loads. But ultimately, we don't know how much they come up to but some rough calculations did work out to 15 tonnes range although rough calculations by laymen rarely mean much when applied to top secret military projects. We are, after all, using a very small knowledge base to try to work an equation to see if it could fit a known answer, which is not at all the same as developing an equation to figure out the answer. Whether those savings actually add up or whether they did choose to make those trade-offs is only known the the makers at this point, so in the end, my answer is I'm uncertain but believe there is a possibility mostly relying on the magazine source.

In general, I believe in new design advantage, especially from a country with the most capable supercomputers to be used in those designs. But in the end, all that adds up to for me so far is that I don't dismiss the claims though I don't have the hard evidence to embrace them either.
 
Last edited:

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I don't necessarily disagree with the above. I disagree with you posting this while arguing with someone as a method of pushing your framing, assumptions and conclusions. It's also condescending.
I'm not referring just to three posts back, but your general habit of doing it.
I won't derail the thread further with this.

You bring up a valid point, but I would like for you to know that I am fully aware of my pushing of the importance of framing the conversation and it is deliberate.
But the circumstances tend to be ones when debates about the credibility of a source or the believability of a particular claim comes under dispute.
More often than not, if the "how to watch Chinese military watch" premise is raised, it is because I view it to be relevant to the argument at hand.

I apologize if it came across as condescending, though I'm not sure which part of which reply you refer to.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Thank you for responding. Regarding the radars, you can see what was said in post #1305.
Maybe you'd like to consider the other half of the question. If the roles were switched, would you apply the same standards to American claims?
Oh, I didn't see that part about the radar either. (I apologize for my oversight. There is so much written, I skimmed most of it and missed some things.) Wow. I didn't know they were so confident in it. Now the F-35 radar is LPI while the JF-17 radar is not, right? Perhaps they refer to the F-35'd radar when operating on LPI mode, which is less effective than at full blast? I really don't know but same deal; I can't dismiss or accept it but their confidence is inspiring. It would be amazing but not unbelievable if they did create a radar superior to America's best even in a smaller export version! Imagine what the J-20 radar can do then, eh? So much we don't know...

Science is a wild thing; a hefty knowledge base is a great tool but never overlook luck or individual talent (which is actually luck, since talent is not controllable). If I read a scientific article today saying a team in Vietnam invented a new alloy stronger and lighter than the best titanium for aircraft, I would not dismiss it. I look for evidence; I don't lay my trust in brand name.

Now I do have my limits. If the Iranians said that their new stealth fighter could go mach 6 and weighed less than a handbag, I would not trust that. Reason being it is a full system and in order for a full system to be improved dramatically, it requires enhancements in thousands of fields together. And without solid funding and knowledge base, the luck required to make that happen is something I would have to see to believe.

But China is a very heavily-funded country with a tradition of making advanced military equipment using cutting edge design methods and world-beating supercomputers. It has more engineers than any other nation and many are educated from institutions around the world to diversity its methods of solving problems. If a country like China, USA, or Russia claimed that they made a very significant advancement on the current world standard, in general, I would tend to trust it.
 
Last edited:

Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
You bring up a valid point, but I would like for you to know that I am fully aware of my pushing of the importance of framing the conversation and it is deliberate.
But the circumstances tend to be ones when debates about the credibility of a source or the believability of a particular claim comes under dispute.
More often than not, if the "how to watch Chinese military watch" premise is raised, it is because I view it to be relevant to the argument at hand.

I apologize if it came across as condescending, though I'm not sure which part of which reply you refer to.
Well I guess I will derail the thread a bit more.
Condescending as in giving the impression that you know best about how things work and get to tell others, while at the same time smuggling in your own assumptions and views about things which are in dispute (the second part can also qualify as dishonest). As I've said, my annoyance stems from seeing this kind of post dozens of times. No offense meant.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Well I guess I will derail the thread a bit more.
Condescending as in giving the impression that you know best about how things work and get to tell others, while at the same time smuggling in your own assumptions and views about things which are in dispute (the second part can also qualify as dishonest). As I've said, my annoyance stems from seeing this kind of post dozens of times. No offense meant.
If you thought Blitzo or Latenlazy's condescending, wait till you meet Brat LOL

"I'm old as hell! I flew airplanes! I don't need reason; just respect mah authoritar! I retired USAF 30 years ago; that means I know exactly how much any airplane in 2017 can or cannot weigh just by eye-balling it! I can even eye-ball supercruise! Your airplane is shiny and cute but F-22 is the king of the Universe FOREVER!! It's an ALIEN BIRD!! You're full o' nonsense; your claim is full o' nonsense and if your country thinks it can ever produce anything worth half a Raptor's ass hair, they're all full of unmitigated nonsense as well! (But your airplane is shiny and cute.) And if you disagree with me, that's cus you're a Disney princess in fantasy land! PS I love you my brother, let's all be civil and kind to each other."

LOLOL
 
Last edited:

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Well I guess I will derail the thread a bit more.
Condescending as in giving the impression that you know best about how things work and get to tell others, while at the same time smuggling in your own assumptions and views about things which are in dispute (the second part can also qualify as dishonest). As I've said, my annoyance stems from seeing this kind of post dozens of times. No offense meant.

No offence taken.

I think I do understand what you mean, and I admit I do give the impression that sometimes I know better.
I've been part of probably hundreds of conversations and debates which would not have even begun if one party was aware of the methods of Chinese military watching. Again, more often than not those debates revolve around the credibility of rumours and sources.
If anything, there have been too many big ticket items unveiled over the years to not form a modus operandi from the patterns of rumour to revelation.
I'm not sure if you were into PLA watching around 2006/7, but that was basically the time when the first key info about JXX started coming out. And then four years later, those rumours became reality, many almost on the dot. Then it was repeated with other projects. 052D, Y-20, Lijian, 055, CV-17, EMCAT, being the most high profile ones. Following the process of how the rumours became reality for many of these projects have meant I do think in this respect I know better than some (not you personally of course), and I am only slightly apologetic for putting it that way. In that way, there are other members here who have a much better grasp of Chinese military watching than others (including of course, better than myself), and it isn't just a matter of how long they've been on the forum either.

However, I think I am also quite open to challenges of my assumptions or methods, and I am always more than willing to agree to disagree if someone wants to reject my model.

I am happy to continue this conversation over PMs if you wish.
 

Klon

Junior Member
Registered Member
No offence taken.

I think I do understand what you mean, and I admit I do give the impression that sometimes I know better.[...]
I regret using the word 'dishonest' in my post. In the second part of that sentence I was referring to the fact that your post came across (to me at least) as "This is how this works. This is what most people think. This is what we should conclude," on an issue that I was actively discussing with latenlazy. Maybe I overreacted. No need to talk about this further.

If you want to talk about issues, feel free to take a look at my two last points addressed at latenlazy; they're about the J-20's weight and some claims that I find unlikely (at least), but have relatively widespread acceptance on this forum. In a way, this is also directly about how sources etc. should work.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top