J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

Status
Not open for further replies.

JayBird

Junior Member
Director of national intelligence James Clapper trying to remind the senators politely with the people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks phrase. But the senators still too dumb to get it......

And then Clapper replied, “I’m not saying it’s a good thing. I’m just saying that both nations engage in this.”

What he really wanted to say was: You two knuckleheads please grow a brian and don't waste my time with stupid questions already. :p
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Especially in mnid of "who's" exactly extracting illegally the biggest amount of information from the net ? Who's spying as much as possible allies, other nation's governments and industry ??

Anyway ... I think we need new images of '016' !

Deino
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I think: Some American Politicians are really screwed up in thinking!

Lawmaker: Chinese J-31, J-20 ‘Mirror’ American F-35, F-22
A U.S. senator asked Pentagon officials why the government hasn’t retaliated against China for copying the designs of its most advanced fighter jets.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Sen. Joe Manchin, a Democrat from West Virginia, said the Chengdu J-20 twin-engine stealth fighter bears similarity to the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
made by Lockheed Martin Corp., while the Shenyang J-31 twin-engine multi-role fighter resembles the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
design also made by Lockheed.

“What they’ve been able to do in such a rapid period of time without any R&D, do you believe that that gives them a competitive advantage?” Manchin said on Tuesday during a hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee on cybersecurity.

“I mean, I understand there might be some differences as far as in the software and the weaponry and this and that,” he added. “But they’re making leaps, which are uncommon, at the behest of us, and we know this, I understand, but we’re not taking any actions against them.”

Manchin posed the question to James Clapper, director of national intelligence; Robert Work, deputy defense secretary; and Navy Adm. Michael Rogers, commander of U.S. Cyber Command and director of the National Security Agency.

Work acknowledged that the Chinese “have stolen information from our defense contractors and it has helped them develop systems.” But he said, “we have hardened our systems.”

On Friday, President Obama and Chinese President Xi Jinping pledged to refrain from electronic theft of each other’s intellectual property for commercial gain. on Tuesday, Work was careful to characterize the agreement as a “confidence-building measure.”

“We are asking them to prove to us that they are serious about what they say about what they will do to control these efforts,” Work said.

Manchin didn’t seem convinced that the pact would substantially change Chinese behavior in cyberspace.

“I’m saying we know the J-20 is pretty much mirroring our F-22,” Manchin said. “We know that their J-31 is pretty much mirroring our F-35. We we know this and the cost to the American taxpayers … why wouldn’t we take hard actions against them? I just don’t understand why we wouldn’t retaliate from a financial standpoint.”

Work replied, “There are a wide variety of cost imposition options that we have. They’re developed through the inter-agency and, again, it’s not necessarily tit for tat. It is proportional response and we’re working through all of those right now.”

Clapper then reminded the panel that the Chinese actions in cyberspace amount to cyber-espionage.

“Of course, we too practice cyberespionage,” Clapper said. “In a public forum, I won’t say how successful we are at it, but we’re not bad at it. When we talk about what are we going to do to counter espionage, to punish somebody, or retaliate, I at least think it’s a good idea to think about the old saw that people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw rocks.”

That comment didn’t sit well with the committee’s chairman, Sen. John McCain, a Republican from Arizona.

“So it’s OK for them to steal our secrets that are most important, including our fighters, because we live in a glass house?” McCain asked. “That is astounding.”

Clapper replied, “I’m not saying it’s a good thing. I’m just saying that both nations engage in this.”

–Brendan McGarry can be reached at [email protected]. Follow him on Twitter at
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.




Read more:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Defense.org

You really couldn't make this stuff up.

Such apparent low competence and intelligence would be considered too far fetched in works of fiction, yet here it is, happening in real life.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I think: Some American Politicians are really screwed up in thinking!

Lawmaker: Chinese J-31, J-20 ‘Mirror’ American F-35, F-22
A U.S. senator asked Pentagon officials why the government hasn’t retaliated against China for copying the designs of its most advanced fighter jets.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Sen. Joe Manchin, a Democrat from West Virginia, said the Chengdu J-20 twin-engine stealth fighter bears similarity to the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
made by Lockheed Martin Corp., while the Shenyang J-31 twin-engine multi-role fighter resembles the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
design also made by Lockheed.

“What they’ve been able to do in such a rapid period of time without any R&D, do you believe that that gives them a competitive advantage?” Manchin said on Tuesday during a hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee on cybersecurity.

“I mean, I understand there might be some differences as far as in the software and the weaponry and this and that,” he added. “But they’re making leaps, which are uncommon, at the behest of us, and we know this, I understand, but we’re not taking any actions against them.”

Manchin posed the question to James Clapper, director of national intelligence; Robert Work, deputy defense secretary; and Navy Adm. Michael Rogers, commander of U.S. Cyber Command and director of the National Security Agency.

Work acknowledged that the Chinese “have stolen information from our defense contractors and it has helped them develop systems.” But he said, “we have hardened our systems.”

On Friday, President Obama and Chinese President Xi Jinping pledged to refrain from electronic theft of each other’s intellectual property for commercial gain. on Tuesday, Work was careful to characterize the agreement as a “confidence-building measure.”

“We are asking them to prove to us that they are serious about what they say about what they will do to control these efforts,” Work said.

Manchin didn’t seem convinced that the pact would substantially change Chinese behavior in cyberspace.

“I’m saying we know the J-20 is pretty much mirroring our F-22,” Manchin said. “We know that their J-31 is pretty much mirroring our F-35. We we know this and the cost to the American taxpayers … why wouldn’t we take hard actions against them? I just don’t understand why we wouldn’t retaliate from a financial standpoint.”

Work replied, “There are a wide variety of cost imposition options that we have. They’re developed through the inter-agency and, again, it’s not necessarily tit for tat. It is proportional response and we’re working through all of those right now.”

Clapper then reminded the panel that the Chinese actions in cyberspace amount to cyber-espionage.

“Of course, we too practice cyberespionage,” Clapper said. “In a public forum, I won’t say how successful we are at it, but we’re not bad at it. When we talk about what are we going to do to counter espionage, to punish somebody, or retaliate, I at least think it’s a good idea to think about the old saw that people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw rocks.”

That comment didn’t sit well with the committee’s chairman, Sen. John McCain, a Republican from Arizona.

“So it’s OK for them to steal our secrets that are most important, including our fighters, because we live in a glass house?” McCain asked. “That is astounding.”

Clapper replied, “I’m not saying it’s a good thing. I’m just saying that both nations engage in this.”

–Brendan McGarry can be reached at [email protected]. Follow him on Twitter at
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.




Read more:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Defense.org
I think: Some American Politicians are really screwed up in thinking!

Lawmaker: Chinese J-31, J-20 ‘Mirror’ American F-35, F-22
A U.S. senator asked Pentagon officials why the government hasn’t retaliated against China for copying the designs of its most advanced fighter jets.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Sen. Joe Manchin, a Democrat from West Virginia, said the Chengdu J-20 twin-engine stealth fighter bears similarity to the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
made by Lockheed Martin Corp., while the Shenyang J-31 twin-engine multi-role fighter resembles the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
design also made by Lockheed.

“What they’ve been able to do in such a rapid period of time without any R&D, do you believe that that gives them a competitive advantage?” Manchin said on Tuesday during a hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee on cybersecurity.

“I mean, I understand there might be some differences as far as in the software and the weaponry and this and that,” he added. “But they’re making leaps, which are uncommon, at the behest of us, and we know this, I understand, but we’re not taking any actions against them.”

Manchin posed the question to James Clapper, director of national intelligence; Robert Work, deputy defense secretary; and Navy Adm. Michael Rogers, commander of U.S. Cyber Command and director of the National Security Agency.

Work acknowledged that the Chinese “have stolen information from our defense contractors and it has helped them develop systems.” But he said, “we have hardened our systems.”

On Friday, President Obama and Chinese President Xi Jinping pledged to refrain from electronic theft of each other’s intellectual property for commercial gain. on Tuesday, Work was careful to characterize the agreement as a “confidence-building measure.”

“We are asking them to prove to us that they are serious about what they say about what they will do to control these efforts,” Work said.

Manchin didn’t seem convinced that the pact would substantially change Chinese behavior in cyberspace.

“I’m saying we know the J-20 is pretty much mirroring our F-22,” Manchin said. “We know that their J-31 is pretty much mirroring our F-35. We we know this and the cost to the American taxpayers … why wouldn’t we take hard actions against them? I just don’t understand why we wouldn’t retaliate from a financial standpoint.”

Work replied, “There are a wide variety of cost imposition options that we have. They’re developed through the inter-agency and, again, it’s not necessarily tit for tat. It is proportional response and we’re working through all of those right now.”

Clapper then reminded the panel that the Chinese actions in cyberspace amount to cyber-espionage.

“Of course, we too practice cyberespionage,” Clapper said. “In a public forum, I won’t say how successful we are at it, but we’re not bad at it. When we talk about what are we going to do to counter espionage, to punish somebody, or retaliate, I at least think it’s a good idea to think about the old saw that people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw rocks.”

That comment didn’t sit well with the committee’s chairman, Sen. John McCain, a Republican from Arizona.

“So it’s OK for them to steal our secrets that are most important, including our fighters, because we live in a glass house?” McCain asked. “That is astounding.”

Clapper replied, “I’m not saying it’s a good thing. I’m just saying that both nations engage in this.”

–Brendan McGarry can be reached at [email protected]. Follow him on Twitter at
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.




Read more:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Defense.org

Heh!, Heh! Heh! Sen Joe Manchin is actually very well informed about defense matters for a Democrat Senator, and whether or not you agree or disagree that the J-20 bears resemblance to the F-22, or that J-31 is somehow a mirror montage of F-35??? matters not a whit. What does matter is that during President Xi's visit recently the A number subject of contention and conversation was/is cyber espionage, and there is NO doubt that F-35 data was breached, and yes that "borrowed information" helps our friends "catch up" with-out the time, money, effort, development that we invested??? Hey, we all play that game, the difference is we apply that to our national defense, others use it to "stay with" the competition??

so not to be contentious, but lets at least be honest, that information is a gold mine, and it is a tremendous advantage to "know" what the other guy is thinking or working on!

for what its worth, both Presidents have agreed it harms US/Chinese relations and have agreed to put a kibosh on it? won't happen, but it may get a little more "neighborly" and not just open hostility, I hope for all our sakes that we can be more honest and have better "intentions" toward one another.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Hmmm what you mean ?
That some of our friends have "helped themselves" to highly classified information, Sen Manchin is asking what we intend to do about it. He believes we should punish those who have deliberately and illegally breached our security, and stolen our tech. He also wants to know what we are doing to prevent that from happening in the future?

Now I agree the Obama administration has offended our friends and emboldened our enemies, and Hillary Clinton is a perfect example of that arrogance/stupidity with her email server crimes, but more importantly, she and Barack Obama are directly accountable for Benghazi and the death of our ambassador Christopher Stevens, and those brave patriots who tried to save him. It was a cover-up of ambassador Stevens running guns to the Syrian opposition, even using al-Qaida???

What is of much more concern is that protected data of millions of private citizens has been stolen by cyber criminals for illicit purposes? so really the Senator is asking questions that millions of US citizens want asked, and they expect something to be done to protect not only our information, but to maintain our national security, that's all, why all the ruffled feathers gents?

but Dieno is right! lets get back on topic
 

JayBird

Junior Member
Heh!, Heh! Heh! Sen Joe Manchin is actually very well informed about defense matters for a Democrat Senator, and whether or not you agree or disagree that the J-20 bears resemblance to the F-22, or that J-31 is somehow a mirror montage of F-35??? matters not a whit. What does matter is that during President Xi's visit recently the A number subject of contention and conversation was/is cyber espionage, and there is NO doubt that F-35 data was breached, and yes that "borrowed information" helps our friends "catch up" with-out the time, money, effort, development that we invested??? Hey, we all play that game, the difference is we apply that to our national defense, others use it to "stay with" the competition??

so not to be contentious, but lets at least be honest, that information is a gold mine, and it is a tremendous advantage to "know" what the other guy is thinking or working on!

for what its worth, both Presidents have agreed it harms US/Chinese relations and have agreed to put a kibosh on it? won't happen, but it may get a little more "neighborly" and not just open hostility, I hope for all our sakes that we can be more honest and have better "intentions" toward one another.

No one is denying the resemblance of J-31 to F-35 here brat. And I'm sure the J-20 design team also thoroughly studied all the information available to them on the most advanced fighter jet in the world, which is the F-22 for inspiration before they work on the J-20. So.. it's not surprising that there is some resemblance to both jets. Whether what sub systems of F-35 was hacked or even done by the China is up for debate.

But it's Sen Joe Manchin and Sen. John McCain's feathers that got ruffled here. Even the director of national intelligence James Clapper already clearly stayed the U.S also practice cyberespionage against China as did China against the U.S. And I'm sure with the most advanced cyber security and technology the U.S must've got tons of valuable information from China as well. What make you think is okay for U.S to hack other countries but not vice versa unless there is an agreement signed by both countries to not practice cyberespionage against each other?

You also said it yourself that we all play that game. But then you said "the difference is we apply that to our national defense," it's that make it's okay? I thought hacking is hacking.. If you want to justify hacking then In that case China is playing the same game for World peace and for the better future of all mankind. :cool: The mind set of Sen Joe manchin here is of arrogance that basically said I can hack you, but you can't hack me. Or I will punish you for the same thing I did.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Heh!, Heh! Heh! Sen Joe Manchin is actually very well informed about defense matters for a Democrat Senator, and whether or not you agree or disagree that the J-20 bears resemblance to the F-22, or that J-31 is somehow a mirror montage of F-35??? matters not a whit. What does matter is that during President Xi's visit recently the A number subject of contention and conversation was/is cyber espionage, and there is NO doubt that F-35 data was breached, and yes that "borrowed information" helps our friends "catch up" with-out the time, money, effort, development that we invested??? Hey, we all play that game, the difference is we apply that to our national defense, others use it to "stay with" the competition??

so not to be contentious, but lets at least be honest, that information is a gold mine, and it is a tremendous advantage to "know" what the other guy is thinking or working on!

for what its worth, both Presidents have agreed it harms US/Chinese relations and have agreed to put a kibosh on it? won't happen, but it may get a little more "neighborly" and not just open hostility, I hope for all our sakes that we can be more honest and have better "intentions" toward one another.
The politicians who are best at defense and foreign affairs don't flap their lips with that much bluster. Joe Manchin's mindset about the J-20 and J-31 is unfortunate, because it perpetuates a dangerous mentality, that the primary threat from espionage is copying, rather than the threat of technological leapfrogging and development of countermeasures. I find it interesting that Clapper and his aide don't directly address the copying allegations. They would know better, of course.

To that point, insisting that what matters is that China "borrows" information to "stay with the competition" assumes that that is all they are doing, or all they could do. For example, the US didn't "borrow" information from the Soviets to "stay with the competition", and I would argue the greater value of "borrowing" data on the F-35 and F-22 isn't in development of a peer, but development of a countermeasure.
 
Last edited:

vesicles

Colonel
I think that the heart of the problem is that politicians, such as Manchin and McCain, like to label things, such that "cyber-espionage is bad/evil", while professionals like Clapper caution them not to do that. If cyber-espionage is evil, then the US should not do it... The fact is the US is very good, if not the best, at it. That's why Clapper cautioned the politicians not to label the activity...

Of course, the US has every right to do all that is possible to protect itself against such attacks. But that's simply just a part of the game. Like a basketball game, where each team must play offense AND defense. There is no right or wrong in it since both team play the same game. You may not like it when the other team scores on you. You may secretly curse them. However, in public, like any professional athlete, you give the other team credit for a job well done. then you try your best to beef up your defense against such attack again. Don't label the other team evil or criminal for doing the same thing that you do... It's going to come back and bite you in the butt. A good example would be the Snowden situation.

I would like to note that a "spy" is in fact a professional thief. So every nation steals from others. That's what the CIA does, what the former KGB did, what the MI5 does and what the Chinese National Security Agency does. They train people to steal. That is a fact. Anyone remember the U2 program? The plane was designed to do one thing and one thing only: stealing... So let's not label one as criminal, but at the same time glorify the other. It's hard to justify it...

Of course, China might have obtained some of our personal information. Who knows what the US govn't has gotten on the Chinese citizens... And even worse, who knows what our own govn't has gotten on us... The Patriot Act, anyone???
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top