J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

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JayBird

Junior Member
I think you guys are getting ahead of yourselves. Doubt the J-20 will ever mount WS-10s. WS-10s belong to SAC. CAC has more experience with AL-31s, and probably better relations with Salyut. Bringing in a new engine is bringing in a new random variable into the equation.

But...but... as long as J-20 still use AL-31, there will always be a "heart problem" with J-20. And I want it to be heal ASAP.:(

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I think you guys are getting ahead of yourselves. Doubt the J-20 will ever mount WS-10s. WS-10s belong to SAC. CAC has more experience with AL-31s, and probably better relations with Salyut. Bringing in a new engine is bringing in a new random variable into the equation.

Still, it does illustrate how stark Chinese industry's propulsion bottleneck is across the board, from much less sexy tanks, ships, helicopters, transports, all the way to the sexiest of weapons systems their stealth fighters. Despite all of China's catching up in military technology, it is likely still deficient in several key fundamental areas, propulsion being the most obvious.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Still, it does illustrate how stark Chinese industry's propulsion bottleneck is across the board, from much less sexy tanks, ships, helicopters, transports, all the way to the sexiest of weapons systems their stealth fighters. Despite all of China's catching up in military technology, it is likely still deficient in several key fundamental areas, propulsion being the most obvious.
World class turbofans are one of the hardest technologies to master. You have to be at the frontier of several other technologies and sciences before you have any hopes of being a leader there. Unfortunately for countries trying to catch up, one of the key technologies is also one of the most time consuming and most well guarded, which are high temperature high strength high endurance alloys. That said, I personally think the WS-15 is a realistically attainable goal, in part because it won't be a state of the art engine by the time it goes into production.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
and to be fair only 3 or 4 countries are top/world class (US, UK, France and perhaps Russia) ... China is not there yet, but maybe in the list as well in 10-15 years.

Not Japan, not SK, not Germany could manufacture World class turbofans.

China of course has produced turbofans engine (e.g WS-9, WS-10A), but they are not world class yet
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I think you guys are all getting a little too worked up over this.

For one thing, its not like China is chasing a static target. China-bashers love to mention the very first year an engine was introduced, but they either cannot comprehend, or are wilfully ignoring the glaringly obvious facts that the AL31s and F100/F110 etc of today are vastly improved compared to their first irritations from the 70s to the point of almost being entirely different beasts.

The latest AL31s the WS10A has to compete with only came out a few years ago and/or are still in the final stages of development.

The very fact that most of the PLA new built J11s and other Flanker derivatives are using WS10A is a massive deal, and is proof positive that Chinese engine development has come of age.

The other pair major factors that people seems to forgot is that a) engines take a very long time to develop and mature, and that b) we as outsiders can only view progress in a very rudimentary binary form - either an engine is ready and in operational deployment, or its not (well technically we get the odd rumour, but since they cannot be substantiated, I have disregarded them since it cannot be taken as conclusive evidence no matter how good the reputation of the person putting out the rumour, I do give them the attention they deserve, but that's a judgement thing).

We cannot see the progress that is being made on the very long road from no engine to having operational engines, so for years, just because we might not seen any evidence of progress does not mean progress is not being made.

The very fact that there is a WS15 in advanced development is massive progress compare to only a decade ago.

Now, not only does China have its own indigenous high performance turbofan in operational deployment that is comparable to other engines of its class anywhere in the world, it is well on its way to developing an example of the very best engine class currently available anywhere, and will be only the second or 3rd member of that very exclusive club depending on how the Russians fair with their engine.

Now, back on topic, I actually view the "rudimentary" mating of the engine nacelles and engine as well as the lack of treatment of the AL31s heartening.

Its not that CAC isn't capable of adding the fine finishing touches or simply forgot (the did all of that with the earlier prototypes after all), but rather that they are not bothering. And the only plausible reason I can think of as to why they would not bother with all those final details is if they know or expect to be changing to a different engine eventually, so would rather design the nacelles to fit the new, ultimately intended engine perfectly and live with some gaps or other slight blemishes while the J20 uses its current stand-in engine, so that when ready, then new engines could slot in with minimal effort and modifications necessary.

If there was ever any doubt that the AL31s would only be a temporary interim stand-in, I think this should put those doubts to rest.

The fact that the J20's current engines are only stand-ins would also be a key reason for why they are not bothering with WS10As.

Just what would be the point in wasting time and money adapting a second interim engine that would ultimately only need to be replaced once the WS15 is ready anyways?

As such, I don't think WS10s were ever realistically on the table. Once the J20 gets an engine change, it will most likely be WS15s, but we are several years too early for that based on the best estimate I can get from piecing together all the rumours.

In all likelihood, if this is the block 1 LRP standard, the first regiments of J20s will fly with AL31s. It will probably be the second or third batch of serial production planes that will get the WS15, and that's probably being optimistic and assuming they don't run into any unexpected delays with the WS15 development.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
What all/most these prototypes features was most likely a al-31f-m1 variant. It is a mature variant, its technology was most probably basis of al-31fn series 3 already cleared for china, heck it's plausible china itself funded development of m1 variant, given the timescale. It is further plausible exact subvariant on j-20 prototypes is an uprated specimen, trading a bit of more thrust (few percent?) for half (?) the lifespan of engine. Such trade-off would not be worth it for operational planes but for a prototype programme that intends to switch to more powerful engines later on it may make perfect sense.

No serrations is, at this stage, a non-issue. Why bother with them when the final engine is not even here? While the serrations at the edge of the fuselage may still impact the airflow and are thus present, the serrations at the edge of of nozzles have nothing else behind them to interact with so they may have no significant impact on the aerodynamics.
 

JayBird

Junior Member
Hey, don't look at me. I'm just having some fun being chatty while waiting for pics and updates.

I was just goofing off a little bit. A little disappointed? Yes.. we got too many happy surprises with DF-21D,DF-26, carrier news, 055 news. I was hoping for another surprise. But at the end of the day I'm just happy to see 2016. :D
 
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