J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[b787]

I don't think anyone disputes the F-22s supremacy. The ATF supercruise requirement of Mach 1.58 was exceeded by at least 15% by the F-22. There is no match anywhere in world when it comes to Stealth and Supercruise capability of the Raptor.

If those 117S of the Su-35 goes to the J-20 (which I doubt) and/or even if they manage to reverse engineer the 117S (which will take hell of a long time) it is not going to change much against an F-22 supercruising at Mach 1.7+ and at over 60,000 ft.

117 is better than any engine out there used by China, 117S offers weight reduction and thrust enhancements worth the price to improve the J-20

 

[Engineer]

117 is better than any engine out there used by China, 117S offers weight reduction and thrust enhancements worth the price to improve the J-20

Better, by being better at blowing up and burning the aircraft to crisp.

 

[Hyperwarp]

117 is better than any engine out there used by China, 117S offers weight reduction and thrust enhancements worth the price to improve the J-20

117 is not accessible to China. Its only for the PAK-FA and in an emergency mode can produce 147kN at the expense of MTBO. Combat mode is less. About 142kN - 144kN.

The 117S the Su-35S has can produce max thrust around 142kN, combat mode max about 138kN -

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And you've said yourself, J-20 is going to be quite large and heavy. There is no guarantee 117S will give it any supercruise capability. Actually, I'll go out on a limb and say "IT WON'T".

If it is about reveres-engineering the 117S, that could take years. Maybe more than 5 or even 10 years to correctly ground-up reverse-engineer AND IMPROVE a high-performance turbofan. This is assuming they can reverse engineer it in the 1st place. Even if they are planning to use the 117S installed on the Su-35S, you can't just plug and play. They'll have to redesign parts of the J-20 possibly even the intake geometry to accommodate the 117S, not to mention integrating the 117S TVC system with FBW will require lot more testing and put the program further back. And they have to do all this by importing 24 full-blown Su-35S worth billions? WTH!? You know how inefficient that sounds?

Current J-20 will have to sacrifices both super-cruise and super-maneuverability thanks to the lack of the WS-15 and TVC. But, trying to cram in the 117S NOW will add a new set of problems. If CAC had designed the J-20 specifically with 117S in mind then it would have been possible. But CAC never had connections with NPO Saturn. CAC has ONLY been working with MMPP salut. Reverse-engineering the 117S might be part of a contingency plan if the WS-15 fails. But the J-20 will never reach its full potential without the WS-15 or similar engine.

 

[danielchin]

just saw this screenshot from the Zhuhai video in chinese forum, fans argued the angle of the port side nozzle was slightly different from that of the right side one. hard to say...what do you think?

 

[Blackstone]

Like I said, I have no problem with posting ridiculous articles, but I also feel like we need to assess them properly and if they're ridiculous then they need to be called out on it.

Articles by Gordon Chang are an example of socio-political and economic commentary that are almost roundly ridiculous and laughed out of here, and this particular example also fits that bill.

However articles by the defence section of National Interest and Dave Majumdar also often fit that bill, including the article you posted a page or so back about Su-35 and J-20.

I think we should let the free marketplace of ideas compete and weed out the bad ones. Failing to do that can lead to echo chambers that aren't full of good ideas. My favorite example is the shutting down of real free speech in some of our colleges and universities where only some speech are permitted, while others are said to be not only "bad," but not allowed.

The solution to speech some people deem ridiculous is more speech and not less, and I will continue to link J-20 related articles here, with regrets to some people's acute sensitivities.

 

[Tyloe]

The angle of the photo has the right stinger block the nozzle which can mislead one to suggest TVC, the lesser quality of the image helps. Also I think the Su-35s will simply be served as flanker benchmark. If WS-20 coming in the next decade then it doesn't make sense to canabalise engines for refit/reverse engineering.

 

[Tyloe]

deleted

 

[vesicles]

I think we should let the free marketplace of ideas compete and weed out the bad ones. Failing to do that can lead to echo chambers that aren't full of good ideas.

Just wondering what you mean by "weed out"? How do you think the weeding out should occur? How would you treat the ideas deemed untrustworthy?

In my opinion, we are in a free market place and doing the weeding out as we speak. Once we identify those sources deemed untrustworthy, we stop listening to them. You, on the other hand, are doing the exact opposite. You are putting the weed back in the yard.

Note that we are not advocating shutting down those journals and websites that we deem untrustworthy. We simply stop listening to them. There is a huge difference between allowing freedom of speech and feeling the need to listening to every single crazy idea out there.

We allow the KKK to do public demonstrations because this is a free country. That doesn't mean we have to listen to their ludicrous ideas. Huge difference.

 

[manqiangrexue]

I think we should let the free marketplace of ideas compete and weed out the bad ones. Failing to do that can lead to echo chambers that aren't full of good ideas. My favorite example is the shutting down of real free speech in some of our colleges and universities where only some speech are permitted, while others are said to be not only "bad," but not allowed.

The solution to speech some people deem ridiculous is more speech and not less, and I will continue to link J-20 related articles here, with regrets to some people's acute sensitivities.

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Bon appetit

 

[latenlazy]

Current J-20 will have to sacrifices both super-cruise and super-maneuverability thanks to the lack of the WS-15 and TVC. But, trying to cram in the 117S NOW will add a new set of problems. If CAC had designed the J-20 specifically with 117S in mind then it would have been possible. But CAC never had connections with NPO Saturn. CAC has ONLY been working with MMPP salut. Reverse-engineering the 117S might be part of a contingency plan if the WS-15 fails. But the J-20 will never reach its full potential without the WS-15 or similar engine.

I don't think that's correct, actually. Underpowered as the J-20 may be, if the airframe is designed to supercruise at standard load, there should be some fuel load in which it's T:W ratio is equal to what its T:W ratio would have been at standard load. That means the current J-20s should be able to supercruise, though they may not be able to reach the top supercruise speeds they were designed for with WS-15s.