J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread V

[siegecrossbow]

It is CNN, what do you expect? You know "CNN" has become an Chinese cyber-word since 2008? Use in "做人不要太CNN了。", literally "Man shall not be too CNN", meaning "the bottom line of being a human is not to act like CNN."

Most of the articles are basically rehashes of the same stuff posted on January 1st, 2011. It's almost as if they stepped out of a time machine or something.

 

[b787]

It is CNN, what do you expect? You know "CNN" has become an Chinese cyber-word since 2008? Use in "做人不要太CNN了。", literally "Man shall not be too CNN", meaning "the bottom line of being a human is not to act like CNN."

i will tell you my opinion.

CNN is not completely wrong, the canards, the ventral fins, the nozzles are less stealthy than the F-22 you like it or not you accept it or not.
In that i think the J-31 is the better fighter.

The jet is large, it is between 20.5 to 21.5 meters, its engines lack TVC nozzles, so it canards flap like crazy, very likely it has Al-31FNs, so it is underpowered.
Now this is a fact anyone outside the Chinese community will see right away.

Now is avionics is another thing, the jet might pack advanced avionics, the american general is just guessing, perhaps with some good intel but i doubt he knows the kind of systems J-20 has, so here i agree, no one knows what radar or avionics it has.
The Chinese brass also will say the J-20 is wonderful, like most of you do say.


CNN says something many say, the larger size of J-20 means it carries more fuel, that is excellent if you consider it needs to fly like the AM-6 over large expanses of ocean.

Why the J-20 is larger? first the canard was set far ahead of the wing because the weapons bay demanded a longer fuselage and the canard had no way it could be set above wing level the wing also was set far aft to improve the supersonic aerodynamics by reducing the cross section of the engine nacelles, so it has the shape of a strong person, the intakes are like broad shoulders, but the legs are thinner

The ventral fins are something more interesting, they are unwanted reflectors, and even worse they are canted too, they are not canted by aerodynamic reasons, but by stealth reasons.


So you like it or not the flight displays you have seen lack post stall, when have we seen it? never, despite here people present the regular turns as incredibly agile the jet has not shown post stall, and without TVC means limits in cruise flight F-22 and PAKFA do not lack, in terms of flight control, plus the canards are huge.

So regardless what you say the F-22 continues to be the best over all aerodynamics/stealth blend aircraft, if you look at the transition of the flat sides of the weapons bays and the engines nacellles, sorry to say this but J-20 has a poor job done, look at F-22 and the transition is smooth, the mid wing on F-22 blends nicely, on J-20 it does not.


but well i know you will not accept it, so over-hype J-20, J-31 will be the better fighter once it gets a better engine, and China will not abandon the J-31, that is the better fighter, it only needs a better engine

 

[Insignius]

When will that "canards arent stealthy" -meme end?

I give you the ventral fins, as they are very 80s, but the canards? That's just being sour grapes after the USN's ATF has lost out because of lack of FBW during that time

 

[dingyibvs]

i will tell you my opinion.

CNN is not completely wrong, the canards, the ventral fins, the nozzles are less stealthy than the F-22 you like it or not you accept it or not.
In that i think the J-31 is the better fighter.

The jet is large, it is between 20.5 to 21.5 meters, its engines lack TVC nozzles, so it canards flap like crazy, very likely it has Al-31FNs, so it is underpowered.
Now this is a fact anyone outside the Chinese community will see right away.

Now is avionics is another thing, the jet might pack advanced avionics, the american general is just guessing, perhaps with some good intel but i doubt he knows the kind of systems J-20 has, so here i agree, no one knows what radar or avionics it has.
The Chinese brass also will say the J-20 is wonderful, like most of you do say.


CNN says something many say, the larger size of J-20 means it carries more fuel, that is excellent if you consider it needs to fly like the AM-6 over large expanses of ocean.

Why the J-20 is larger? first the canard was set far ahead of the wing because the weapons bay demanded a longer fuselage and the canard had no way it could be set above wing level the wing also was set far aft to improve the supersonic aerodynamics by reducing the cross section of the engine nacelles, so it has the shape of a strong person, the intakes are like broad shoulders, but the legs are thinner

The ventral fins are something more interesting, they are unwanted reflectors, and even worse they are canted too, they are not canted by aerodynamic reasons, but by stealth reasons.


So you like it or not the flight displays you have seen lack post stall, when have we seen it? never, despite here people present the regular turns as incredibly agile the jet has not shown post stall, and without TVC means limits in cruise flight F-22 and PAKFA do not lack, in terms of flight control, plus the canards are huge.

So regardless what you say the F-22 continues to be the best over all aerodynamics/stealth blend aircraft, if you look at the transition of the flat sides of the weapons bays and the engines nacellles, sorry to say this but J-20 has a poor job done, look at F-22 and the transition is smooth, the mid wing on F-22 blends nicely, on J-20 it does not.


but well i know you will not accept it, so over-hype J-20, J-31 will be the better fighter once it gets a better engine, and China will not abandon the J-31, that is the better fighter, it only needs a better engine

Just wondering, what background do you have for you to feel so confident in your technical analysis of a fighter jet?

 

[siegecrossbow]

Guys. Please keep the discussions civil and refrain from personal attacks. Thanks in advance.

 

[zaphd]

When will that "canards arent stealthy" -meme end?

I give you the ventral fins, as they are very 80s, but the canards? That's just being sour grapes after the USN's ATF has lost out because of lack of FBW during that time

It wouldn't surprise me if this myth originated from Lockheed Martin's marketing department. Early JAST (JSF precursor) studies, X-36, Boeing sixth gen concepts etc. etc... How many counter examples do you need.

With that said IMO the J-20 is not as clean a design as the F-22 or even F-35. It will certainly be hard for it to be as stealthy as its American counterparts.

 

[b787]

When will that "canards arent stealthy" -meme end?

I give you the ventral fins, as they are very 80s, but the canards? That's just being sour grapes after the USN's ATF has lost out because of lack of FBW during that time

canards have two main troubles, first is aerodynamic position on the J-20 it has dihedral, meaning that frontally you have the wing plus the canards as reflectors, on F-22 the horizontal stabilator is shielded by a thick wing, so frontally you only have a wing, no other reflector, on F-22 you have TVC reducing reflection, in fact, the stabilator is mainly used for roll, TVC is the main control system at cruise fllight, for stealth in reality the best is tailess, but canards have more constraint that horizontal stabilators or aft tails.

Further more the tailboom on F-22 blends much better the fuselage thanks to aft tail, on the delta wing of J-20, the aft strake where the ventral fins are set reduce the blending of the engines nacelles have with the flat sides of the weapons bays, further more the flat nozzles on F-22 are better suit to reduce supersonic drag, So F-22 was well thought as a super cruising jet

 

[Inst]

As to whether the J-20 is stealthy, the question is from what angle? Even the F-22, from certain angles, lights up like a Christmas tree. That the canards and ventral fins detract from stealth is true, but they do not detract from frontal stealth.

 

[Inst]

I also don't get why the J-20 is seen as inferior to the J-31 because it has a canard configuration. That the J-20 has canards does not necessarily mean it must use canards; it has a variety of other control surfaces to control trim.

 

[b787]

As to whether the J-20 is stealthy, the question is from what angle? Even the F-22, from certain angles, lights up like a Christmas tree. That the canards and ventral fins detract from stealth is true, but they do not detract from frontal stealth.

not from an acute angle, the F-22 will fire its load from an acute angle with respect a ground radar, but J-20 needs to use the canard as controls systems, even if it uses the wing trailing edge flaps will be inferior to a jet using TVC nozzles, plus the canards dihedral are canted in a different angle to the ventral fins and weapons bays sides, J-31 is harder to make as fighter for one reason the RD-33 are inferior engines for a stealth fighter of that size, the J-31 needs engines in the class of 11 tonnes in full afterburner and 8-9 tonnes in military power.
J-31 is not going to be cancelled, but its engines are the true challenge.
J-20 is better because its longer range, same as the Flanker has been preferred over the MiG-29, the J-20 as it stands with long range missiles and a good set of avionics will add a credible threat in long range missions over any F-15 or Ching kuo adversary aircraft, perhaps even F-18E too