J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

[Air Force Brat]

Not sure if PS but its going on my desktop..

and mine as well usaf- thats a gorgeous shot of our girl, and if you lads check my old posts, I have speculated all along the 2001 as well a 2002 would have changed out engines several times, and as for calling the engines being used inferior, they are derated from what is desired, and as someone has alluded to as well, they are likely operated at the tops of the temp gauges, from my observation the J-20 gets off right smartly, it rotates and clears the ground nearly immediately, and gives NO indication of being underpowered at the current operating weights, so while I too am hoping we get the WS-15 up and running and have in fact predicted a post New Year upgrade. And to my best bud Mig 29, please don't start the length-weight ping pong contest again, it is pointless and you have been so much more succinct and stuck to the facts, lets keep this thread clean, Popeye works way to hard at his day job to have to play kindergarten cop on the playground! I did however post on OVT in the aerodynamics thread, I think there may be some warming of the Sino-Russo cooperation?AFB

 

[usaf0314]

and mine as well usaf- thats a gorgeous shot of our girl, and if you lads check my old posts, I have speculated all along the 2001 as well a 2002 would have changed out engines several times, and as for calling the engines being used inferior, they are derated from what is desired, and as someone has alluded to as well, they are likely operated at the tops of the temp gauges, from my observation the J-20 gets off right smartly, it rotates and clears the ground nearly immediately, and gives NO indication of being underpowered at the current operating weights, so while I too am hoping we get the WS-15 up and running and have in fact predicted a post New Year upgrade. And to my best bud Mig 29, please don't start the length-weight ping pong contest again, it is pointless and you have been so much more succinct and stuck to the facts, lets keep this thread clean, Popeye works way to hard at his day job to have to play kindergarten cop on the playground! I did however post on OVT in the aerodynamics thread, I think there may be some warming of the Sino-Russo cooperation?AFB

funny thing... I'm taking Cause of War and we touched the topic of F-22 being the dominate fighter for the next 2-3 decades. The Prof firmly believes that the J-20 is inferior... little does he know the few aspects of J-20 posses that is superior to the F-22... don't get me wrong, F-22 is a superb fighter, but dismissing the seriousness of another 5th gen aircraft is pure arrogance

 

[latenlazy]

If both are AL-31, why put out one with silver nozzle and the other don't?

Could be that they were testing IR suppressing nozzles, but since 2001 has been tested for so long, and since there's now a 2002, when they needed to replace the engine they decided to forgo the coating. Or it could just be that they painted the nozzle for decoration.

 

[Dizasta1]

So is correct then, that the J-20s are being powered by AL-31s and not WS-10s? If that is the case, then those silver-nozzle engines are AL-31s? Why would that be the case, when we have witnessed the J-11Bs and J-10Bs being powered by WS-10s? And speaking of WS-10s, wasn't it reported that the engine had an improved variant, called the WS-10G? Wasn't that variant suppose to be this silver-nozzle engine on J-20? Seems to me that the WS-10 has indeed matured and updated versions of the engines are now in production. The only obvious thing about the Chinese engines, is the silence of China on the subject. Could it be that China still wants to keep the supply of Russian engines, flowing as normal because they're stockpiling on them? It would make sense to do something of that sort, since the engines are powering the J-10As, as well as the Su-30s and Su-27s.

I still look forward to China designing and manufacturing top-rated engines. The day isn't far when we see the JF-17 Thunders being powered by WS-13s, the J-10Bs by WS-10s and the J-20s by WS-15s. Engines are the heart of an aircraft, without them, there is no aircraft, just a glider. And I doubt China would like to remain dependent on Russia for engines. Nothing against the Russians, they have been pioneers in the Aerospace Industry for decades and have produced beautiful aircraft. But we are talking about China, the new and emerging Superpower. And as a Superpower, China would expect itself to produce and design world class engines. The Chinese have shown the world that they have it in them to be pioneers in their right. The only thing now left to be seen, is the WS-13s, WS-10s, WS-15s and WS-20s to achieve their relative performance parameters and be certified for mass production.

 

[Engineer]

i do not what engine, niether the weight, if it weighs 17 tonnes, the engines must have supercruise, but supercruise on F-22 is not for an hour, it is less than an hour.
Think with full afterburner most jets won`t fly more than 5-7 minutes at full afterburner.
J-20 needs something like 119, Al-31M1 still is not the engine for T-50 or J-20, the Russians say 129 is the engine they want, not even 117 is satisfactory

Any aircraft with high enough thrust-to-drag ratio will supercruise. Supercruise refers to the ability of an aircraft to fly at supersonic speed without needing afterburner, and not a particular feature installed on an engine.

 

[latenlazy]

So is correct then, that the J-20s are being powered by AL-31s and not WS-10s? If that is the case, then those silver-nozzle engines are AL-31s? Why would that be the case, when we have witnessed the J-11Bs and J-10Bs being powered by WS-10s? And speaking of WS-10s, wasn't it reported that the engine had an improved variant, called the WS-10G? Wasn't that variant suppose to be this silver-nozzle engine on J-20? Seems to me that the WS-10 has indeed matured and updated versions of the engines are now in production. The only obvious thing about the Chinese engines, is the silence of China on the subject. Could it be that China still wants to keep the supply of Russian engines, flowing as normal because they're stockpiling on them? It would make sense to do something of that sort, since the engines are powering the J-10As, as well as the Su-30s and Su-27s.

I still look forward to China designing and manufacturing top-rated engines. The day isn't far when we see the JF-17 Thunders being powered by WS-13s, the J-10Bs by WS-10s and the J-20s by WS-15s. Engines are the heart of an aircraft, without them, there is no aircraft, just a glider. And I doubt China would like to remain dependent on Russia for engines. Nothing against the Russians, they have been pioneers in the Aerospace Industry for decades and have produced beautiful aircraft. But we are talking about China, the new and emerging Superpower. And as a Superpower, China would expect itself to produce and design world class engines. The Chinese have shown the world that they have it in them to be pioneers in their right. The only thing now left to be seen, is the WS-13s, WS-10s, WS-15s and WS-20s to achieve their relative performance parameters and be certified for mass production.

If Deino's sources are right, it's because they could get uprated AL-31. There are other possible reasons related to scarcity. They may not want to spare a WS-10 while production rates are lower/demand is higher.

Honestly though, I don't see what the fuss is all about. WS-10 or AL-31, neither are intended for final production of the J-20.

 

[Air Force Brat]

funny thing... I'm taking Cause of War and we touched the topic of F-22 being the dominate fighter for the next 2-3 decades. The Prof firmly believes that the J-20 is inferior... little does he know the few aspects of J-20 posses that is superior to the F-22... don't get me wrong, F-22 is a superb fighter, but dismissing the seriousness of another 5th gen aircraft is pure arrogance

Well as of today 2/11/13 he is right, its not arrogance to compare the supposed fifth gens, the aircraft the prof mentioned is in fact the only operational fifth gen in the world, the F-35 in particular does NOT met the fifth gen criteria, and each of these other little sisters is short of a full house. Now folks call them what they will, and they throw out lots of hypothetical chaff to make themselves seem wise or play one--upmanship. The truth is not negotialble, politicians can lie and cheat, fighter pilots deal with the truthl I'm curious, what are the J-20s absolute superiorities? Brat

As for the next 2-3 decades nothing on the table as of tonight will surpass what we now have, any supposed pilotless tailess sixth gen is "pure specualation". Brat

 

[MiG-29]

And to my best bud Mig 29, please don't start the length-weight ping pong contest again, it is pointless and you have been so much more succinct and stuck to the facts, lets keep this thread clean, Popeye works way to hard at his day job to have to play kindergarten cop on the playground! I did however post on OVT in the aerodynamics thread, I think there may be some warming of the Sino-Russo cooperation?AFB

I do not think i have over reached the threads topic.
My last participation was simple, i even said i have no idea what engines it has, i only said to Deino i doubted those are Al-31 M2 simply because that engine is in tests and they are using a Su-27 to test it.

So i do not think it is powered with that engine.

Al-31M1 maybe, but despite it looks to have Al-31s, and some Russian experts said the J-20 uses some foreign tech, i would not affirm it is Al-31.

Only time will tell, i said perhaps it is lighter than the F-22, at least the Chinese TV claimed that.
However since the J-31 numbers were rounded i guessed it weighs 17800kg.
It could be the Al-31M1 because Russia is selling upgraded Al-31s to China.


About Russia and China, they are allies, pretty much close allies, but for Russia business is first.

 

[MiG-29]

Well as of today 2/11/13 he is right, its not arrogance to compare the supposed fifth gens, the aircraft the prof mentioned is in fact the only operational fifth gen in the world, the F-35 in particular does NOT met the fifth gen criteria, and each of these other little sisters is short of a full house. Now folks call them what they will, and they throw out lots of hypothetical chaff to make themselves seem wise or play one--upmanship. The truth is not negotialble, politicians can lie and cheat, fighter pilots deal with the truthl I'm curious, what are the J-20s absolute superiorities? Brat

As for the next 2-3 decades nothing on the table as of tonight will surpass what we now have, any supposed pilotless tailess sixth gen if "pure specualation". Brat

F-22 and B-2 are more over estimated than really are practical, first because they are ultra expensive, as Eurofighter proved, i still have my doubts stealth is what is claimed specially since F-117 was decomissioned so fast.

Perhaps China, Europe and Russia are wiser to make their jets less stealthy just for the sake of effectiviness.
at a price tag of 180 million of course lockheed will claim stealth works, even when their pilots can not use oxygen masks, an irony do not you think, how simple flaws are seen in ultra expensive jets while most americans can not even afford a decent health plan

 

[Deino]

I do not think i have over reached the threads topic.
My last participation was simple, i even said i have no idea what engines it has, i only said to Deino i doubted those are Al-31 M2 simply because that engine is in tests and they are using a Su-27 to test it.

So i do not think it is powered with that engine.

Al-31M1 maybe, but despite it looks to have Al-31s, and some Russian experts said the J-20 uses some foreign tech, i would not affirm it is Al-31.

Only time will tell, i said perhaps it is lighter than the F-22, at least the Chinese TV claimed that.
However since the J-31 numbers were rounded i guessed it weighs 17800kg.
It could be the Al-31M1 because Russia is selling upgraded Al-31s to China.


About Russia and China, they are allies, pretty much close allies, but for Russia business is first.

Thanks a lot ! By the way is there a so called AL-31M1 (Stage III) or similar ???

Deino