J-10 Thread IV
- Thread starter Jeff Head
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plawolf
Lieutenant General
The two rear fuselage hardpoints have not been seen loaded with anything other than iron bombs, and are extremely rarely seen used at all. Although with dual missile pylons, it’s not a huge issue
Aerodynamics. The J10’s wingtips are shaped to generate strong vortices in flight to greatly increase the lift generated by the wings (you can see the vapour trails during airshows sometimes) and also aid in making the wing control surfaces much more effective and thus the plane more agile and responsive.
The wingtip vortices may also have complex interactions with the canard generated vortices over the main wings to magnify the benefits of both.
I think it’s safe to say that the round a big of ‘magic’ with that layout, because the J20 also uses the same underlying aerodynamic design principles.
As such, you will likely be sacrificing a fair amount of the aerodynamic performance of the J10 by clipping its wings and adding launch rails, far out of proportion to the actual wing surface area sacrificed.
The JF17 was designed as per PAF specs to be as close to an F16 as one can get given the cost limitations. It uses very different design and aerodynamic design principles.
It’s just not a good trade-off for the PLAAF from their doctrine and with the likely adversaries of they are most likely to face.
The PLAAF have never been obsessed with the max possible number of missiles they can hang on their fighters.
Similarly, Chinese fighter radars have never tried to push for excessive multi-target engagement capabilities like some Western and Russian radars, I have a feeling Chinese fighter radars put the most priority on raw power. This will aid both counter stealth and jamming burn-through characteristics, which would be what is most valuable to the PLAAF.
We know from the recent Indian-Pakistan air clashes that Chinese jammers are superb, so it stands to reason that Chinese radars’ ECCM capabilities are similarly advanced if they are being measured by performance against Chinese jammers.
The design choices made by Chinese fighter and radar designers are all in line with their likely opponents. When faced with enemy forces with equipment on par or even superior to your own, your priority is to eek out every last bit of performance from your designs to maximise your chances of winning the engagement.
Western air forces have enjoyed unchallenged air dominance for so long that their designers are now taking that for granted. As such, they are focusing more on cost efficiency rather than raw performance. Having to win the fight almost doesn’t factor into their considerations any more, it’s just assumed as a given, and not only that, but they are taking it for granted they will win air dominance for zero loss. As such, their primary design focus is apparently now on how many targets their planes can kill in a single sortie.
I personally think that is a massive strategic mistake on the part of the west.
Do you know where I can read a good article or watch a lecture about that engagement? A lot of the stuff is nationalist chest-thumping.
Given the cost overruns endemic to America's MIC, I had a good chuckle at that.
What?? Even supposing Chinese jammers in particular are responsible for the supposed successful jamming of Indian aircrafts, sensors, and whatever C4ISR, that's hardly indicative of Chinese jammers being superb. EW edge on India flying Su-30MKI and Mirage 2000s should not be considered thoroughly impressive.
What does unchallenged dominance have to do with designers taking things for granted. Huge assumptions there. They are so focused on cost efficiency they fielded the F-22 and F-35 as their most recent fighters? I'd say they've gone even further into raw performance, at least for the F-22. The F-35/22 don't focus on huge A2A payloads at all! This post is one dimensional and inaccurate. If the primary design focus (assuming newer designs like Raptor and Lightning 2) are focused on targets killed per sortie in terms of carried ordinance, then all the facts show otherwise. If you're talking about propositions for the F-15 and micro missiles, many of those are to intercept A2A missiles and even super loaded F-15s are still useful. There is utility in being able to carry huge A2A or A2G payloads in any case.
Well, jamming 5th gen fighter AESAs would be beyond "superb," that would be top tier. I doubt even the USAF can successfully jam its own Raptor/F-35s radars... Perhaps @Brumby can advise?
The broad frequency blasts required to jam the best AESA radars requires a ton of energy... not sure if any airborne platform has that much power at present.
The broad frequency blasts required to jam the best AESA radars requires a ton of energy... not sure if any airborne platform has that much power at present.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
LO
I did not find any single authoritative and comprehensive piece on the engagement, but pieces together the information from various sources and judgement calls on what I find credible. But as a general rule, anything the Indians have to say about it publicly I tend to take with a truck load of salt
Haha, point. I was talking more about cost effectiveness per sortie rather than per airframe.
I did not find any single authoritative and comprehensive piece on the engagement, but pieces together the information from various sources and judgement calls on what I find credible. But as a general rule, anything the Indians have to say about it publicly I tend to take with a truck load of salt
Haha, point. I was talking more about cost effectiveness per sortie rather than per airframe.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
So what would be impressive by your standards?
No one in their right minds would consider the F22 recent.
The F22 is pretty much the last western fighter designed with raw performance being the number one and uncompromising consideration.
The F35 has followed the same development path as pretty much all US fighters since to gain significant weight, at the expense of agility, to gain better air to ground strike capabilities at the expense of air to air.
That is an undeniable fact, and you only need to look at the specs and performances of any late block multirole version US teen series fighter compared to their Air superiority originals to see the truth in that trend.
Just look at all the bulges and lumps on current block F35s compared to the prototypes and I dare to to say those aren’t compromises to sacrifice some stealth for more internal volume to better facilitate strike.
The J10 is pretty much one of the very few families where the latest version has retained or even improved upon the raw kinetic performance of the original, while adding in better sensors, weapons and jammers to give an overall better air combat fighter in all areas. The only other example I can think of where this has happened is the Su35, and funny that of all of Russia’s offering, that is the only new fighter China has bought from them in decades.
In all other instances, any improvements in terms of sensors and engines are more than offset by increased weight and bulk to give fighters that are better at strike missions, but nowhere near the full true potential they could have attend had the focus of their upgrades been kept on air combat.
How has the J-10 managed to buck that trend?
Edit: Nvm, I missed this
Mission focus and stopping feature creep.
And even then, you become the brightest Christmas ornament on the tree and every missile is now pointed at you.
Not really. ECM blasts are focused beams. Plus these platforms are supposed to be flying behind fighter/SEAD aircraft. By the time they are within the engagement envelope, the threat should already be neutralized.
This is why aligning all the vectors of your fighter/strike/SEAD packages with with ECM aircraft and the threats is so critical. When done properly, the ECM platforms should be untouchable when you pick your fights wisely...
On the other hand, if you suddenly get flanked by a 5th gen Raptor/J-20, which pops up out of nowhere to splash your ECM... or it turns out the opponent's ECCM is better than your ECM... well, then you picked the wrong fight and now you're gonna die. Merry Xmas.