Italian Horizon class anti-air warfare (AAW) frigate "Andrea Doria"

not only is the system architecture newer, the radar is an Active PAR. Of course, can the APAR provide illumination also? If it can, then it's unquestionably the world's most advanced air defense system.

One of the points of active phased array that it can provide numerous illumination points for multiple targets, at the same time. So it doesn't need separate illuminators like aegis does. I'm not 100% sure but am too lazy to check it out, aren't asters actively guided? With lock on after launch that'd mean they can shoot down low flying targets past the ships' radar reach.

if Aster is ARH, what's the whole point with illumination? You don't need high frequency beams for mid course guidance. But let me check, just in case.

Well, just did the search, the Aster is terminal active. Hmmmmm. Maybe Thales just wanted the ESSM market share. Who knows.

actually it's probably "forward looking" strategy by Thales.

well, band star radar on 052C provides guidance for OTH attack. So the entire argument about not having that is not really valid. The radar on 052C should also be active phased array.

tphuang said:

well, band star radar on 052C provides guidance for OTH attack. So the entire argument about not having that is not really valid. The radar on 052C should also be active phased array.

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OTH radars, as far as i know, work on one of two principles. Either to bounce signals off ionosphere or to use the curve of the surface for the radio waves to hug it and bend with it - ground wave radars. But both require huge amount of processing power (a small problem nowadays) and large arrays. And i mean LARGE. (big problem) Way too big to fit on a ship. Especially if you wanna do the ground wave radar - such are composed of multiple array units scattered over a length of over a kilometer.

So i'd really appreciate some articles and schematics showing how does the band star radar offer true OTH capabilities. I guess any radar would have a small ground wave effect over a sea surface, increasing its range some 5-10 km over the horizon, but that's not a true OTH radar.

Totoro said:

OTH radars, as far as i know, work on one of two principles. Either to bounce signals off ionosphere or to use the curve of the surface for the radio waves to hug it and bend with it - ground wave radars. But both require huge amount of processing power (a small problem nowadays) and large arrays. And i mean LARGE. (big problem) Way too big to fit on a ship. Especially if you wanna do the ground wave radar - such are composed of multiple array units scattered over a length of over a kilometer.

So i'd really appreciate some articles and schematics showing how does the band star radar offer true OTH capabilities. I guess any radar would have a small ground wave effect over a sea surface, increasing its range some 5-10 km over the horizon, but that's not a true OTH radar.

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before I get onto bandstand. You have to remember that the OTH attacks from 052C can be guided by ka-28, su-30 or Y-8. So, to say that it cannot use the 300 KM range is not true at all.

As for band stand (mineral-me):

"By early 2003 it was possible to determine from Internet-based reporting that the 168 class made extensive use of Russian weapon and sensor components. Internet-sourced pictures revealed that their armament would consist of the Russian SA-N-12 surface-to-air missile, a new 100mm main gun, the new Type 730 30mm Gatling gun CIWS, and an ASW helicopter.[70] In late April 2003 Internet-sourced photos of No. 168 showed a new radar dome atop the bridge similar to the BAND STAND over-the-horizon targeting radar on the SOVREMENNIY. This indicates that the destroyer will be equipped with a long-range over-the-horizon anti-ship missile. Possible candidates would be the C-803, the Russian CLUB-N, or the Russian Kh-35. The inclusion of the BAND STAND radar had led to some speculation that the new missile would be the Raduga MOSKIT, but that missile is too large to be placed in ship’s current anti-ship missile racks. "

Note, band stand (or local versions of it) is on both 052B and 052C.

Note: the listed range for Mineral-me is 450KM.



To be honest, comparing 052C and Horizon class is kind of pointless.

A better comparison would be Horizon vs type45. They should both be using PAAMS.

If you read what i've written in this thread you'd see that i said one on one conflict of these ships is not probable. With airborne radar guidance of course the full range can be used, and it's pretty evident one would try to provide that guidance, it'd be the sensible and probable thing to do.

Do you claim that the ka-28 on the 52c have a radar with good enough range to guide the missiles? I know russians have offered a version but i didn't think chinese took up on that. If there are AEW ka-28s, how many are there, on which ships do they operate? I'm really interested to know, i'm not gonna dispute it with you, i'd be glad if chinese operated such systems.

As for the over the horizon 450 km range stat of the disputed radar system... excuse me but i still haven't read anything that'd make me change my mind. Like i said, any radar has a certain over the horizon capability, but it's rather small. I hoped for a more technical piece of info, just how does the said radar achieve its considerate over the horizon capability, and just what exactly that oth range is.

Gollevainen said:

But do remember, those 55+km SSMs are fired with superior electronical meassurements against likely opponents that have no means of destroying them on air, where the less its own air defence can drop everything you send against it...

But i have to check this range claim...sounds bit low, To my knowlidge OTOMAT II flyes over 120km

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Yeah, your right.
But the ship can't detect more than 40 kilometers
So it's probably on par with the YJ-80X, I would put money that that this missile can stand better chance to jamming and ESM than YJ-80X or even YJ-62 (we don't know specs of it yet...)

The Otomat 2 over-the-horizon ship-to-ship missile has a range of 100-180 kilometers. Due to influences from the curvature of the earth, the detection systems on the attacking ship itself are limited to direct use within approximately 40 kilometers. Therefore, to operate and effect the over-the-horizon ship-to-ship missile, either a surface ship or a shipborne helicopter must take the forward position to act as a midway station to transmit pertinent data, relating target information, and flight information on the missile back to the attacking ship. The helicopter simultaneously transmits pertinent commands (such as guidance correction) from the firing ship or the mid-way point to the missile in flight, allowing the missile to hit the target with precision.

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Totoro said:

If its the unlikely scenario of one ship versus the other, with no other support, i'd say the horizon has better chances. Since no ship has helicopter mounted radar anything over the horizon range is useless as you can't find your target. I'd guess for a ships of these sizes that range would be some 45 km. So the chinese ship would have to get in range of horizon in order to detect it.

If we're talking about a scenario where some aircraft are attacking each ship, again the lack of airborne, over the horizon radar coverage negates the range 52c has. Planes could detect each ship at least some 150km away, probably more, then get low and avoid the radar until they get in range of their weapons. So no, 52c couldn't really attack the planes before they fire their missiles. And once missiles are incoming, i'd give better chances of survival to horizon. Paams is cutting edge tech, according to data that's been released at least on par with current day aegis.

Of course, if ones does posses airborne radar supplying the ship with targets, 52c would have the upper hand with its long range antiship missiles.

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even sinodefence says the Band stand allows a ship to fire missles at max range (up to 200km without helicopter). The ka-28 has a sea search radar mounted on the starboard floar. A 52b/c has a hanger large anough to accomadate up to 2 ka-28s.

MIGleader said:

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even sinodefence says the Band stand allows a ship to fire missles at max range (up to 200km without helicopter). The ka-28 has a sea search radar mounted on the starboard floar. A 52b/c has a hanger large anough to accomadate up to 2 ka-28s.

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actually that articles says up to 150 km but that's not the point. Point is that i'm really interested in learning how does the said radar work, how does it achieve its oth range. Ive tried googling it but didn't find anything. Excuse me if i can't take what is written on sinodefence without a grain of salt... it's just that it goes against what i know about the principle of oth radars - but i could, of course, be wrong. So all i'm asking is someone to show me some resources from which i can learn more about how the range is achieved.

It's good to know the ka28 posses the ability to serve as some kind of detection / guidance relay platform... too bad i can't find any figures with the capablities and range of the onboard radar. Can anyone help with that?