Issues on Intercepting Hypersonic Missile.

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
not an expert on this, but it would make a lot more sense for SM-2 to be used against aircrafts and ASuW. Whereas the smaller ESSM used more for AShM. Let's say it takes 2 ESSM to bring down one AShM and 2 SM-2 to bring down one AShM. It would make much more sense to use the ESSMs, since you can pack more of them and you can leave the SM-2 for other missions.
Depending on the SM, they can be used for long range down to short range interceptions. When you get close in, then you have thre RAMS and Phalanx. The ESSM overlaps both areas. This gives the US naval vessels, their commanders, and their defensive systems maximum flexability in determining which asset should be used against which target and when.

The Standard Missile (SM) in its various incarnations, and depending on the version, is very capable against anti-shipping missiles. It's own anti-shipping capability is there, but is not its primary or preferred mission at all.

Shooting down aircraft is certainly another mission those missiles would be depended upon for if they came within their envelope and if US aircraft were not in position to do so.
 

alopes

Junior Member
News about US navy reaction to Chinese new ballistic anti-ship missiles.
Or could it be only more of the China threat theory.

link-
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Missile Threat Helped Drive DDG Cut
Zumwalt Class Could Not Down Chinese Weapons
By christopher p. cavas
Published: 4 August 2008
Print Print | Print Email

The threat posed by a super-secret new Chinese ballistic missile is among the factors driving the U.S. Navy's decision to "truncate" the planned seven-ship DDG 1000 Zumwalt class of advanced destroyers and build more DDG 51-class ships.

Navy officials say the primary advantage of DDG 51 Arleigh Burke-class ships equipped with the Lockheed Martin Aegis combat system is that they can shoot down ballistic missiles - a capability the Navy never asked for in its high-technology and high-priced Zumwalts and its new Raytheon-developed combat system.

A program to upgrade 15 existing DDG 51 destroyers, along with three Aegis cruisers, will be complete by year's end. But the new missile threat is causing combatant commanders - the "cocoms" who lead regional commands such as U.S. Pacific Command and European Command - to demand more ships that can handle ballistic missile defense (BMD). The Navy's solution is to drastically reduce the number of Zumwalts to two ships that critics say will be simply technology demonstrators.

"The DDG 1000 … is incapable of conducting ballistic missile defense," Vice Adm. Barry McCullough, deputy chief of naval operations for Integration of Resources and Capabilities, told Congress July 31 during a hearing called to address the destroyer issue.

McCullough, in his written testimony, also revealed that the DDG 1000 cannot perform area air defense - the ability to shoot down enemy planes and missiles over a wide region. The Zumwalts, McCullough said, "cannot successfully employ the Standard Missile-2 (SM-2), SM-3 or SM-6."

The SM-2 is the Navy's primary air defense missile, and Raytheon is developing the SM-6 replacement. The SM-3 is a BMD missile.

A Navy source said the ships could carry and launch Standard missiles, but the DDG 1000 combat system can't guide those missiles onward to a target.

The new information contrasts with a DDG 1000 briefing provided this spring by the Naval Sea Systems Command, which listed Standard missiles as among the Zumwalt's weapons, and with well-known sources such as Jane's Fighting Ships, which lists the new ships as carrying the SM-2 missile.

BMD Issue Grew

The BMD issue gained prominence with Navy planners over the winter as intelligence assessments described the new threat. McCullough, in response to a question at the hearing by the House Seapower subcommittee, said work to rejigger the destroyer program began "four and a half to five months" ago, making it late February or early March.

Although a "secret, classified" threat was discussed during the hearing, neither Navy officials nor lawmakers would reveal any details.

One source familiar with the classified briefing said that while anti-ship cruise missiles and other threats were known to exist, "those aren't the worst." The new threat, which "didn't exist a couple years ago," is a "land-launched ballistic missile that converts to a cruise missile."

Other sources confirmed that a new, classified missile threat is being briefed at very high levels. One admiral, said another source, was told his ships should simply "stay away. There are no options."

Information on the new threat remains closely held.

"There's really little unclassified information about this stuff," said Paul Giarra, a defense consultant in McLean, Va., "except for the considerable amount of information that's appeared in unclassified Chinese sources."

Several experts on Chinese missiles contacted for this story said they weren't sure which specific threat drove the Navy to change its destroyer plans. One source speculated it might be "Threat D, a cruise missile that separates to a supersonic missile." A Chinese ballistic missile with terminal radar-homing capabilities - "a carrier killer" - is another possibility.

Retired Rear Adm. Eric Vadon, a consultant on East Asian defense affairs, thought the weapon sounded like a Dong Feng 21 (DF-21) missile, also known by its western designation CSS-5. Although the basic missile has been in service since the 1970s, the Chinese are known to be working to turn it into a homing ballistic missile.

"There's a possibility that what we're seeing is that somebody is calling this thing a cruise missile because it has some of those characteristics," Vadon said. "It maneuvers and it homes in. But a cruise missile breathes air."

The Chinese targetable ballistic missile threat has long worried U.S. Navy planners and military professionals.

"We're pretty certain the Chinese have been working on this for some time," said Bernard Cole, a professor at National Defense University in Washington and an expert on the Chinese military. "It would pose a threat. I don't know how you would counter that missile."

But Cole said the description of a ballistic missile turning into a cruise missile is new: "I've never heard this described this way."

Sources in the Pentagon said the U.S. Navy has not yet moved to add the BMD upgrade to any more existing Aegis ships. But a senior defense official confirmed the Navy is embracing BMD as a mission for Aegis surface combatants - and that all the new DDG 51s the Navy is asking for will be BMD-capable.

McCullough also said that the destroyer modernization program, which will start in 2011 with the oldest ships, will include signal processors "with inherent ballistic missile defense capability." Those electronics will make the ships more easily upgradeable should the service choose to add the BMD upgrade.

Even if the Pentagon and Congress approve the request to build more DDG 51s, the new ships won't start to come on line until at last 2015, estimated Eric Labs of the Congressional Budget Office, who also testified at the July 31 hearing.

A Controversial Move

Navy leaders received permission July 22 to ask the Pentagon to build only two DDG 1000s and instead ask for at least nine more DDG 51s. While observers have known for months that support for the DDG 1000 program inside the Navy was weak, the move nevertheless surprised Raytheon, which is developing the combat system and numerous subsystems for the Zumwalts, and a number of lawmakers who support the DDG 1000 program.

"Wow. We're turning on a dime," Rep. Joe Sestak, D-Pa., a former Navy vice admiral, said July 31 about the Navy's decision to halt DDG 1000 construction. "Where's the analysis, the strategic thought, the studies, and the cost studies that will show: is this really the way to go, or is there a different change or a better approach? I don't think we've seen those."

Rep. Roscoe Bartlett, R-Md., ranking member of the Seapower subcommittee and a former chairman, noted that he supported the Zumwalt program when the understanding was that the design's new tumblehome hull would be used in the follow-on CG(X) cruiser. Now, although the Navy has not revealed any details of an analysis of alternatives being conducted for the CG(X), Bartlett said the new ship will likely not have the new hull.

"I feel a little bit 'had' now when I'm told that the hull will probably not be used in CG(X)," Bartlett said.

Navy officials have been reluctant to explain the program shift publicly. Although senior Navy leaders began briefing Congress July 22, no press conferences have been held and no official statements released. And while McCullough and Allison Stiller, the deputy assistant secretary of the Navy for ship programs, appeared at the July 31 hearing, they declined to speak with the media afterward, instead hurrying to a waiting van which sped off before the doors closed. ■

E-mail: [email protected].
 

GreenestGDP

Junior Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

Bloomberg Story Link >>>
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



For those who urge PLAN and champions of building the Aircraft Carrier for PLAN should all swallow their saliva and re-consider their line of Aircraft Carrier flawed logic.

Building the Aircraft Carrier is the Paramount of the "shooting_one_self_on_the_foot" backward thinking.

Time will tell if PLAN master planner group are not populated by these "Dimwit" thinkers.

:china: :nana:

China’s New Missile May Create a ‘No-Go Zone’ for U.S. Fleet

By Tony Capaccio

Nov. 17 (Bloomberg) -- China’s military is close to fielding the world’s first anti-ship ballistic missile, according to U.S. Navy intelligence.

The missile, with a range of almost 900 miles (1,500 kilometers), would be fired from mobile, land-based launchers and is “specifically designed to defeat U.S. carrier strike groups,” the Office of Naval Intelligence reported.

Five of the U.S. Navy’s 11 carriers are based in the Pacific and operate freely in international waters near China. Their mission includes defending Taiwan should China seek to exercise by force its claim to the island democracy, which it considers a breakaway province.

The missile could turn this region into a “no-go zone” for U.S. carriers, said Andrew Krepinevich, president of the Center for Strategic and Budget Assessments in Washington.

Scott Bray, who wrote the ONI report on China’s Navy, said China has made “remarkable progress” on the missile. “In little over a decade, China has taken the program from the conceptual phase” to “near fielding a combat-ready missile,” he said. Bray’s report, issued in July, was provided to Bloomberg News on request.

China also is developing an over-the-horizon radar network to spot U.S. ships at great distances from its mainland, and its navy since 2000 has tripled to 36 from 12 the number of vessels carrying anti-ship weapons, Bray, the ONI’s senior officer for intelligence on China, said in an e-mail.

China’s Strategy

The new missile would support China’s “anti-access” strategy to detect and if necessary attack U.S. warships “at progressively greater distances” from its mainland, Krepinevich said.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates, in a Sept. 16 speech, said China’s “investments in anti-ship weaponry and ballistic missiles could threaten America’s primary way to project power and help allies in the Pacific -- particularly our forward bases and carrier strike groups.”

Admiral Gary Roughead, chief of U.S. naval operations, says the new Chinese missile was one factor in his 2008 decision to cut the DDG-1000 destroyer program from eight ships to three because the vessels lack a missile-defense capability.

The Navy instead plans to build up to seven more Lockheed Martin Corp. Aegis-class DDG-51 destroyers and equip them with the newest radar and missiles.

China’s ballistic missile “portends the sophistication of the threats that we’re going to see,” Roughead said in an interview earlier this year.

China has ground-tested the missile three times since 2006 and conducted no flight tests yet, Navy officials said.

‘Limited Capability’

General Xu Caihou, China’s No. 2 military official, played down the weapon’s significance.

“It is a limited capability” to meet “the minimum requirement of” China’s national security, Xu, vice chairman of China’s Central Military Commission, said in response to a question following an Oct. 26 speech in Washington.

Mark Stokes, an analyst who has studied the missile program, said the Navy’s assessment indicates China started to develop the weapon after the March 1996 Taiwan “crisis.” That’s when the Clinton administration sent two aircraft carriers and escort warships into the Taiwan Strait and the surrounding area after China fired missiles near the island before its presidential election, Stokes said.

Stokes just published a study of the weapon for the non- profit Project 2049 Institute in Arlington, Virginia, that studies Asia security issues.

Alter Rules

An article in the May 2009 edition of Proceedings, a magazine published by the U.S. Naval Institute, said the missile “could alter the rules in the Pacific and place U.S. Navy carrier strike groups in jeopardy.”

“The mere perception that China might have an anti-ship ballistic missile capability could be a game-changer, with profound consequences for deterrence, military operations and the balance of power in the Western Pacific,” the article said.

Paul Giarra, a defense consultant who studies China’s weapons, called the missile “a remarkably asymmetric Chinese attempt to control the sea from the shore.”

“No American military operations -- air or ground -- are feasible in a region where the U.S. Navy cannot operate,” Giarra, president of Global Strategies and Transformation, based in Herndon, Virginia, said in an e-mail.

The missiles are intended for launch to a general location where their guidance systems take over and spot carriers for attack with warheads intended to neutralize the ships’ threat by destroying aircraft on decks, launching gear and control towers, Giarra said.

The Pentagon, in its latest annual report on China’s military, for the first time included a sketch of the notional flight profile of the new Chinese missile but gave little additional detail.

Sky Wave

Bray said China has the initial elements of its new over- the-horizon radar that can provide the general location of U.S. vessels before launching the new missile.

Stokes said the so-called Sky Wave radar can spot U.S. vessels as far away as 1,860 miles (3,000 kilometers).

Unlike traditional radar that fires radio waves off objects straight ahead, over-the-horizon radar bounces signals off the ionosphere, the uppermost layer of the atmosphere, which can pick up objects at greater distances.

The radar is supplemented by reconnaissance satellites, another Navy official said, requesting anonymity. There are 33 in orbit and that number may grow to 65 by 2014, 11 of which would be capable of conducting ocean surveillance, he said.

To contact the reporters on this story: Tony Capaccio in Washington at [email protected]
Last Updated: November 16, 2009 16:11 EST
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

For those who urge PLAN and champions of building the Aircraft Carrier for PLAN should all swallow their saliva and re-consider their line of Aircraft Carrier flawed logic.

Building the Aircraft Carrier is the Paramount of the "shooting_one_self_on_the_foot" backward thinking.

Time will tell if PLAN master planner group are not populated by these "Dimwit" thinkers.

:china: :nana:
New missile may May Create a ‘No-Go Zone’...

This technology has only been talked about in the press and speculated on...it has never been demonstrated or tested, and is certainly not operational. So, even though the PRC may well be (and probably is) working on it...there is no operational system yet. In addition, advances in the defense against such ballistic attack on the other hand are progressing nicely and have been tested successfully on numerous occassions...and with eventual directed energy weapons that capability will increase (which technology is also talked about but not yet demonstrated or tested).

So, by your reasoning then, the United States naval planners, the UK naval planners, the Spanish naval planners, the Italian naval planners, the French naval planners, the Indian naval planners, the Brazilian, the Russian, etc., etc. who are all aware of the facts as I have stated them...are all "dimwits" and you and those who reason as you do are the enlightened ones?

Sorry, clearly the aircraft carrier and its capabilities are still not only needed, but sought after by every major power on earth...and for good reason.

There is no more effective way of projecting conventional power...and there remains significant chance and need for that type of projection on earth today...or to counter those who would do so towards your interests.

As a result, I expect to see several PLAN carriers in the next 15-20 years.
 
Last edited:

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

Bloomberg Story Link >>>
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



For those who urge PLAN and champions of building the Aircraft Carrier for PLAN should all swallow their saliva and re-consider their line of Aircraft Carrier flawed logic.

Building the Aircraft Carrier is the Paramount of the "shooting_one_self_on_the_foot" backward thinking.

Time will tell if PLAN master planner group are not populated by these "Dimwit" thinkers.

:china: :nana:
alright, I see that you are excited, but calling other people "dimwit" thinkers is not going to make you too popular here. Make sure to read some of what other people say before getting caught up in all the hype.
 

GreenestGDP

Junior Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

My deep apology to everyone that feels offended by my exuberant comments.

I will definitely try very hard to tone down my rhetoric.

I am just extremely worried that PLAN Master Planners will tilt their strategic planning unwisely toward building those "In_Your_Face_Weapons" such as Aircraft Carrier battle group, and sacrificing the precious resources & time at their disposal.

Building and defending Aircraft Carrier requires way too much resources and damaging the Peaceful Rising National brand.

Asymmetric Warfare is definitely the way to go forward.

PLAN should channel their resources to build higher quality Submarines which will function as the forward spotter in order to guide the AShBM in attacking the enemies ships and use the Submarine to launch the flexible UAV to attack the land targets.
 
Last edited:

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

My deep apology to everyone that feels offended by my exuberant comments.

I will definitely try very hard to tone down my rhetoric.

I am just extremely worried that PLAN Master Planners will tilt their strategic planning unwisely toward building those "In_Your_Face_Weapons" such as Aircraft Carrier battle group, and sacrificing the precious resources & time at their disposal.

PLAN should channel their resources to build higher quality Submarines which will function as the forward spotter in order to guide the AShBM in attacking the enemies ships and use the Submarine to launch the flexible UAV to attack the land targets.
No problem. Feelings can run deep on such topics.

However, let me point out once more. There have been NO flight tests of this technology. There have been no instances where such a technology has been deomonstrated. In fact, there are several new technologies that the PLAN would have to develop to make something like this work, none of which have ever been demonstrated.

I believe the crux of this effort (at least right now) is best summed up by the following statement in the article you quoted:

bloomberg.com said:
“The mere perception that China might have an anti-ship ballistic missile capability could be a game-changer...

Right now, even though the PLAN is working on moving forward, that's all there really is...and it is part of an info war.

In the mean time, the US and every other major fleet continues to either operate, or seek carriers. Which is the true indication of how seriously they take this threat.

Part of that reason is because the technology already exists and has been successfully demonstrated (and is improving) to counter such a threat should it ever actually materialize. That's why more TBM capable AEGIS vessels are being built...and not just by the US Navy.

Now, as to your suggestions to the PLAN to develop more and better submarines and other assets. I completely agree...and that is also what they are doing. But they also clearly see the need for the ability (in their future) to project power in a way that a carrier force can do...and are working on acquiring that as well.
 

GreenestGDP

Junior Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

To: Mr. Jeff Head

Many thanks for your reply.

I must admire all your effort and dedication on building such a wonderful website showcasing PLAN achievements and progress.

Sorry, rather off-topic:
Although, it is quite awkward the same website are spewing the political stands that is spawning from the same neocon rush limbaugh plantation.

Note to Mods: I search and unable to find any Private Message tool.

mods note >> You cannot make a private message until you have made 15 post.

bd popeye super moderator and grand pubah
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

To: Mr. Jeff Head

Many thanks for your reply.

I must admire all your effort and dedication on building such a wonderful website showcasing PLAN achievements and progress.

Sorry, rather off-topic:
Although, it is quite awkward the same website are spewing the political stands that is spawning from the same neocon rush limbaugh plantation.

Note to Mods: I search and unable to find any Private Message tool.
Greenest, you can click on my name or picture from any post I make and find options on my profie page to PM me.

As to my own political beliefs...I make no apologies that they are somewhat right of what people today might call center, and what I call conservative. I am unabashadly a supporter and defender of the US constitution, of a strong US military capability, and of liberty undergirded by fundamental moral and republican principle. I am against efforts, ideologies, etc. that tend to tear those things down in America...either imminating from internal or exterernal to the United States.

I felt that way before Rush Limbaugh came on the scene, or before there was a "neocon" term, and I feel that way now. I do not post or harp on it on this board, or push those political and ideological feelings on this site in the least.

This site is not for that. It is for discussing the technology, equipment, and progress of the Chinese armed forces and also includes sections for other nation's military and that is what we discuss here and we leave the other out of it.

So, commenting on my PLAN web site and other naval technology web sites (like WorldWideAircraftCarriers, AEGIS Vessels of the World, US NAVY 21, etc., etc.) is fine. Bringing up our various and potentiallyy differing political views is not...it will only lead to contention which we want to avoid here completely. And I think SD is quite successul in doing that and has a set of GREAT mods who ensure it.

Since you raised the subject publically, I thought I would address it in a like manner...but without making any comment on what your own leanings may be.


Hope that helps.
 
Last edited:

Engineer

Major
Re: Latest PLAN Aircraft Carrier Info & Photos

However, let me point out once more. There have been NO flight tests of this technology. There have been no instances where such a technology has been deomonstrated. In fact, there are several new technologies that the PLAN would have to develop to make something like this work, none of which have ever been demonstrated.
So you work for PLA and has insider information on PLA's R&D projects? How can you be 100% certain that ASBM "is not operational" and that none of the associated new technologies have ever been demonstrated? :rolleyes:

Whenever there is a weapon or a proposal for a weapon that can put American assets at risk, some people get very defensive. Indeed, feelings run deep, and that's usual. However, asserting that ASBM does not exist, and to go even further than that by suggesting that none of the new technologies required by ASBM has ever been demonstrated (ie. with tests) is purely someone's fantasy, plain and simple.

Not that I'm asserting ASBM exists. You actually summed it up quite well in one of your previous posts when you emphasize the word "may". Yes, it may not exist, but that is not equivalent to being it does not exist.

The second artillery launches quite a few missiles each year for testing and training purposes. We don't hear about it everytime there is a launch, but that does not mean that the launches did not occur. We never hear about JL-2 being launched from 094 either, but that does not mean JL-2 and 094 are not operational. Up until China actually did a ASAT test, we haven't hear about China having a KV that can match a satellite's orbital plane and collide head on. But the KV still exists even had China not done the test and we never hear about it.

Therefore, not hearing about it just means not hearing about it. It does not proof that ASBM does not exist or the opposite.

Part of that reason is because the technology already exists and has been successfully demonstrated (and is improving) to counter such a threat should it ever actually materialize. That's why more TBM capable AEGIS vessels are being built...and not just by the US Navy.
Heh... successfully demonstrated against target drones. This is different from successfully demonstrated against an actual ASBM. So by your logic, it hasn't actually been successfully demonstrated.

Of course, even if ASBM exists eventually it will be obsolete just like any other weapon. But by that time, China probably can lob a 60" round to 3000km away using an EM-gun.
 
Top