Is the US shooting itself in the foot by banning Huawei?

Tam said:

The alternative payment system between the EU and Iran is still on and active.

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There is another motivation here, and that is the EU looks to "dedollarize" and seeks to raise the Euro as a global currency.

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No major EU companies want to risk their access to the US and the US Dollar by trading with Iran.

AndrewS said:

Yes, the costs for 5G patents will add up in the billions. But that won't stop downstream businesses being created that are worth trillions.

In terms of profitability, there is a U-shaped profitability curve. So the best places to be are either:

1. Right next to the customer, capturing the branding profits.
2. Left at the beginning at the IP/component production stage, where there are technology monopoly profits.

The middle manufacturing stage is the least profitable.

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Its going to keep adding up with every generation of telecom, and at some point the telecom association will have to decide to reduce the royalties of the oldest most basic and utility patents, or even make them free.

AndrewS said:

No major EU companies want to risk their access to the US and the US Dollar by trading with Iran.

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Depends what European companies. The EU companies most dependent to the US are a select few of car companies like BMW. Or perhaps only BMW. Other car companies, like Renault, Citroen Peugeot, don't sell to the US at all. Others don't sell much, like Audi and Volkswagen, both of whom can afford to lose the US market. Fiat? They may probably look to get rid of their US business. Saab, Volvo? US is not an important market to them, compared to say, China.

If Nokia-Siemens and Ericsson built networks on Iran, how can the US sanction these companies, when the US doesn't even have a telecom network equipment maker at all.

What happens if the EU blocks Intel and AMD from getting ASML? What happens if the EU stops buying F-35s, and US missiles like SM-2s? Who loses here more?

Let me add something. Some people saying that the US-China trade war is really a tech war. Maybe they should have looked the other side--- that the EU has already launched a serious tech war against the US--- and doing this in multiple fronts. Read what Article 13 is.

Tam said:

Depends what European companies. The EU companies most dependent to the US are a select few of car companies like BMW. Or perhaps only BMW. Other car companies, like Citroen Peugeot, don't sell to the US at all. Others don't sell much, like Audi and Volkswagen, both of whom can afford to lose the US market. Fiat? They may probably look to get rid of their US business. Saab, Volvo? US is not an important market to them, compared to say, China.

If Nokia-Siemens and Ericsson built networks on Iran, how can the US sanction these companies, when the US doesn't even have a telecom network equipment maker at all.

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It's access to the US Dollar as well.
What currency are company loans denominated in? What currency are suppliers paid in?

The Iran business isn't worth the loss of access for Citroen or Audi or Volkswagen or Saab or Volvo.
And we know Trump will do it.

Yes, the US really should be sanctioning Ericsson, Nokia and Samsung for selling goods to Iran and then providing support.

But we don't see that happening because of political reasons.

Tam said:

Its going to keep adding up with every generation of telecom, and at some point the telecom association will have to decide to reduce the royalties of the oldest most basic and utility patents, or even make them free.

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That would be an ideal world.

These days, patents act to hinder innovation rather than promote innovation, as per the Economist.

AndrewS said:

It's access to the US Dollar as well.
What currency are company loans denominated in? What currency are suppliers paid in?

The Iran business isn't worth the loss of access for Citroen or Audi or Volkswagen or Saab or Volvo.
And we know Trump will do it.

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These car companies either have no business in the US, or have losing business in the US they can afford to cut or should cut and will inevitably cut. Because yes, these operations are losing money.

Much of Volkswagen's business across the Atlantic lies south of the US border.

Yes, the US really should be sanctioning Ericsson, Nokia and Samsung for selling goods to Iran and then providing support.

But we don't see that happening because of political reasons.

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More than political reasons, its because NO ONE else can build 5G networks in the US other than these companies.

AndrewS said:

That would be an ideal world.

These days, patents act to hinder innovation rather than promote innovation, as per the Economist.

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The Economist is looking at the US side of things where there are a lot of vague, frivolous patents, which resulted in patent trolls exploiting these patents. There goes the US said "advantage" of patents. Just remember during the Apple-Android patent wars, those dubious patents like those used by Apple to sue Samsung, can't stand up their validity in European, Australian, and Japanese courts.

But patents in Europe, Japan, and S. Korea appear like they are made in a different standard from the US, and I believe their patent systems are more rigorous. You don't see patent trolls in those countries.

Note that you can't use utility patents to ban products of a company, like the way Nokia and Samsung tried against Apple as that would be an abuse of utility patents.

Dolcevita said:

She is not a US person nor does she have any presence in the US and is not required to abide by US law.

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Doesn't matter.
There is no diplomatic emunity. There is no loop hole. It works the same.

Courts can issue warents for the arrest of foreign nationals if that individual has in someway violated the laws of that nation. However unless that individual is in a position to be arrested that warrent can go unanswered. But if the warrantee happens to enter a nation with Extradition they are fair game.
It doesn't matter if they are a citizen of the offended nation or not.

If I wrote a log lambasting condemnation of North Korea, I better not take the DMZ tour bus.

The PRC could issue a warrant for an American citizen... oh wait they did.

AssassinsMace said:

The American held in China because he permanently blinded someone in a fight? The naturally meek and weak Chinese man harassed an American football player to where if it were in the US he would've been shot dead because he's black? I

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Mace brought up this one. I was referencing this one.


From the U.S. Embassy to China's website.

China is an independent, sovereign country. One of the chief attributes of sovereignty is the right of a country to make and enforce laws within its own borders. Just as in the United States of America, the Chinese government has the internationally recognized right to try foreigners as well as its own nationals within its territory.

Anyone who breaks the law in China is subject to prosecution under the Chinese legal system. If a person is convicted and sentenced to imprisonment by a Chinese court, this sentence will be served in a Chinese prison.

While in China one is subject to the same laws as is a Chinese citizen. A U.S. passport does not entitle its bearer to any special privileges. One should not expect to receive preferential treatment or to expect that the same array of legal rights accorded one under the U.S. judicial system are necessarily applicable in China.

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And the same visa versa.
Chinese citizens have sold unlicensed American products before and upon landing in the U.S. have been arrested for it. The only difference has been this woman is the Chief Financial officer of Huawei.

Patent rights generally have a expiration date.
Eventually old code and designs no longer get royalties.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Patent rights generally have a expiration date.
Eventually old code and designs no longer get royalties.

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About 20 years for utility patents, 14 years for design patents. Used to be 17 years.

Once expired, they cross over to the public domain.

You can't "steal" IPs from the public domain.

Patents are renewed every four years, up to a maximum of 20 years.