Is the US shooting itself in the foot by banning Huawei?

s002wjh said:

as far as number of STEM graduate etc quality over quantity, US grad school are still one of the best, also most foreign student graduate in US including many from china/india want to stay in US and end up working at various US companies. Looking at AMD/Nvidia/Intel, most engineer are from foreign country. Most STEM professor are foreign born. One of the biggest US advantage is able to absorb many talents from all over the world.

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It's kind of 'interesting' that when the US woos foreign expertise its an "advantage" but when China pays top dollar for talent its some kind of conspiracy.

It's also ironic that "free trade" is so 'selective', I mean if talent starts getting drawn to China is "tariff man" going to slap restrictions on that too?

The mere fact that you say "most STEM professors are foreign born" pretty much says everything about apparent US prowess in technology and engineering doesn't it? If your only advantage is to throw cash around to lure talent rather than grow your own there will come a day when someone else who has more to spend will trump(sic) you!

Taihu light was basically China giving the US the finger when it prevented exports of advanced microprocessors. On one hand the US bitches about China not buying enough from the US on the other it slaps restrictions on what they can buy literally forcing the dollars to be spent within China,

It's not d*ck measuring contest on China's part its the same reaction the brits had when the US took all their atomic research used it for the Manhattan project then had congress bar access to the results and further co-operation, well the brits just went ahead and created and exploded their own nukes, it took almost a decade and a lot of money but they did it anyway! Pretty much the same here, don't need your blessing or help to get the job done!

s002wjh said:

people seem always get into my p** is bigger than yours contest. China made alot progress, true, but its is crucial not to be over confident. US is still leading in many of the tech overall, and its gonna take decades to catch up to that.

as far as number of STEM graduate etc quality over quantity, US grad school are still one of the best, also most foreign student graduate in US including many from china/india want to stay in US and end up working at various US companies. Looking at AMD/Nvidia/Intel, most engineer are from foreign country. Most STEM professor are foreign born. One of the biggest US advantage is able to absorb many talents from all over the world.

So lets just stop this, and knowing china made alot progress, but still has a long road ahead.

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Yes, most Chinese students want to stay in the US after graduation, because they want to build their resume for when they go to their ultimate destinations. When people just graduate, they are mostly next to worthless, but having worked at a top US company for 5 years builds their value and experience a tremendously. I can't tell you the number of Chinese students I've met who want to stay in the US for more experience so they can really have their careers take off when they go back home. And that number only rises with the current hostilities.

While the main advantage of the US is its ability to absorb talent from all over the world, it's a double-edged sword. The main weakness in having key technology developed by foreigners working in your country (even if they are "citizens") is that they are not loyal and can either decide to take their capabilities back home when the conditions are right or in some cases, sell to the highest bidder. This is what happens when good ol' American kids like to major in literature, art, management and laugh at kids with last names Zhang, Pavlowski, Singh for majoring in machine learning, computer architecture, biotechnology, etc...

Equation said:

Yes, most Chinese students want to stay in the US after graduation, because they want to build their resume for when they go to their ultimate destinations. When people just graduate, they are mostly next to worthless, but having worked at a top US company for 5 years builds their value and experience a tremendously. I can't tell you the number of Chinese students I've met who want to stay in the US for more experience so they can really have their careers take off when they go back home. And that number only rises with the current hostilities.

While the main advantage of the US is its ability to absorb talent from all over the world, it's a double-edged sword. The main weakness in having key technology developed by foreigners working in your country (even if they are "citizens") is that they are not loyal and can either decide to take their capabilities back home when the conditions are right or in some cases, sell to the highest bidder. This is what happens when good ol' American kids like to major in literature, art, management and laugh at kids with last names Zhang, Pavlowski, Singh for majoring in machine learning, computer architecture, biotechnology, etc...

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I work in academic before and know a lot foreigner stay in US. Most stay and got green card then citizenship. goto Silicon Valley and see for ur self . Most if not all these foreigner becomes US citizens after some years. It has nothing to do with loyalty, they will go wherever living standards and salary the highest. Most my wife friends from China move to EU, Canada or US etc. my point is not belittle china, the point is I see a lot ppl get cocky after few accomplishments . when china is dominating tech world then u can belittle US weaknesses etc . but right now US are still the dominant tech players in the world. I'm ethnic Chinese and as far as I understand Chinese culture is to be humble and modest . overconfident is the downfall of every man

s002wjh said:

I but right now US are still the dominant tech players in the world.

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That's not really true is it? the US has a habit of appropriating every tech innovation in the "west" (plus Japan and Korea) as "theirs", throwing up barriers so that if you put an American screw in your widget they decide what you can and can't do with the widget and claim "Dominance"! I think the yiddish word for it is 'chutzpah'

Contrast that with the talking point that anything done in "backwards" China is theft and copied (lets not start with Russian engineering and the air brushing of their contributions to science!).

I mean Columbus 'discovered' America (there wasn't anyone there already, honest!) and other 'truths' we are brought up with!

There are a few fields where the US can still claim "dominance" but they are far from THE dominant tech player (patenting round corners doesn't make you dominant!), which is the root of the current "trade dispute" the western mindset felt safe behind its world view that "East Asians" can't innovate just copy a view that persisted for decades, the shock to the system in the 21st century when they discovered that the notion isn't actually true is what's causing the geopolitical problems of today.

The rise of China is akin to a latter day "slave rebellion" after all how dare they want equality, they should just be happy buying our superior soya beans to feed pigs and providing the cheap labour that make our lives better not to have these uppity dreams about making theirs better.

You know that spare cash you've made from your hard work if you can just lend us say another trillion so we can build some more ships to harass you, you won't need to worry you little brains with how to spend it! All this building 5G networks and semiconductors should be left to others, we know best, we're Americans and we're here to help!

Equation said:

....
I can't tell you the number of Chinese students I've met who want to stay in the US for more experience so they can really have their careers take off when they go back home. And that number only rises with the current hostilities.
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Most of my Chinese colleagues (high-tech industry) have settled and are raising their families here. As far as I understood, they want to enjoy a high quality of life. If China would offer them that, I imagine they would go back. After all, that's where most of their relatives are still living.

Unlike in China, they have the freedom here to purchase and own property in a city of their choosing, instead of being screwed by the Hukou. Also they and their kids get to enjoy top-tier social welfare.

Nutrient said:

Article speculating that China's ban of Australian coal is a retaliation for Australia's Huawei ban.

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I have been expecting this sort of news for quite some time now. Australia has been hopping into the US bandwagon but it forgets that the major customer for its minerals and food exports is China. It is a natural relationship. While their relationship with the US is actually kind of unnatural (in economic terms). Historically the US has been IMHO more of a brain drain than a net advantage for Australia for several decades already. Add the cuts that China is making with regards to Australian coal to the reduced purchases by Japan, now that they are reactivating their nuclear reactors, and you have a severe reduction here. Sure, Australian anthracite coal is excellent for steel production, but with the US slapping tariffs on foreign steel, Australian coal had severe headwinds. For power production China has much cheaper coal in China proper. China does not need to import coal. Plus if they did Russia and North Korea also have anthracite.

It will be interesting to see what will happen in the natural gas markets once the Power of Siberia pipeline gets to full capacity too.

The so called US advantage in semiconductors keeps getting eroded. The top semiconductor fab facilities are in Taiwan not in the US. The most widely sold CPU architecture is no longer x86 but ARM (UK). The top chip lithography equipment comes from ASML in Europe. The best memory manufacturer is Samsung. They still have CPU and GPU design talent as well as software tools but US so called dominance in the sector keeps shrinking every decade. I think China will surpass the USA in a decade. The market for such products in China is much larger and it is quite natural that the sector will increasingly move towards this country. Not to mention that most of the supply chain has been in Asia for quite a long time.

The fact that you cannot purchase land in China is, I think, a minor problem. Hong Kong has had the exact same conditions for yonks. The way this was bypassed typically was that each of the major rich families in Hong Kong had large gold holdings which were transferred to the scions of the family. This meant you could easily repurchase any land you required...

With regards to quality of life the main issues in China are clean water and clean air I think. These problems are not intractable. China keeps investing in infrastructure while the US does not invest on it anymore. I think in the long term we will actually see the situation reverse. Think Flint, Michigan, squared.

Chinese students increasingly return home after studying abroad



Basically the return rate has increased from 20% to 80% in the past decade.

Though the number of students studying abroad has increased. That's probably why you still see so many who stick around (Hope Max is more informed after this).


I'm closely tied to Industry and Academia. I know for sure that more and more Chinese students are going home. Even the older generation have started to return because life for them in the US is a dead end. No one to talk with, family still in China, no help when you need it, sinophobia, and many other reasons for this.

You hear stories about how engineers, doctors, PhDs come to the US to wash dishes. Then you wonder what they could have become had they stayed back.

Max Demian said:

Most of my Chinese colleagues (high-tech industry) have settled and are raising their families here. As far as I understood, they want to enjoy a high quality of life. If China would offer them that, I imagine they would go back. After all, that's where most of their relatives are still living.

Unlike in China, they have the freedom here to purchase and own property in a city of their choosing, instead of being screwed by the Hukou. Also they and their kids get to enjoy top-tier social welfare.

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First of all, I don't know what ethnicity you are, so if you're not Chinese, then you should know, we don't discuss our dreams with foreigners. When Chinese people speak with foreigners, it's the standard line, "I like it here. It's very nice. I want a high standard of living." That's what I tell every non-Chinese person as well.

Secondly, then your friends have nothing to offer. If they go to China and get screwed by hukou, then Beijing really doesn't care if they're there or not. When you come to China with useful technology, you don't get screwed by anything; society caters to you. So if your friends are (still) in their linear phase of development (as in they do things according to the protocol they're provided), and there's no shame in that because most people never break out of that phase in their lives, then they're really better off in the US. They'll be treated like ants in China. But if one day, they find themselves innovating cutting-edge tech, they will suddenly find that their standard of living in China is much higher than in the US.

s002wjh said:

I work in academic before and know a lot foreigner stay in US. Most stay and got green card then citizenship. goto Silicon Valley and see for ur self . Most if not all these foreigner becomes US citizens after some years. It has nothing to do with loyalty, they will go wherever living standards and salary the highest. Most my wife friends from China move to EU, Canada or US etc. my point is not belittle china, the point is I see a lot ppl get cocky after few accomplishments . when china is dominating tech world then u can belittle US weaknesses etc . but right now US are still the dominant tech players in the world. I'm ethnic Chinese and as far as I understand Chinese culture is to be humble and modest . overconfident is the downfall of every man

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I've said this before and I'll say it again: it all depends on what those people are capable of. If they have nothing to truly contribute, they will choose to stay in the US because there's no place for people with linear value in China. When they develop themselves to become force multipliers instead of linear, then they will find China a much better place to live even without loyalty considered. And one of the biggest concerns of the US government is that even with green-cards and citizenship, Chinese people aren't really Americans and they're only here for the goods, not for love or loyalty. That citizenship card is just a ticket for stuff; nobody's a fan.

My attitude, cocky, humble or both, has nothing to do with how China progresses here. It's just a friendly chat forum. The attitudes here pertaining to a different field have no effect on the efforts that I put into my endeavors and being cocky doesn't necessarily mean to rest on your laurels either. Nothing wrong with a couple of high-fives and drinks after your milestones or to congratulation yourself (of course, at this level of competition, you can only congratulate yourself in comparison to your rival) unless you stop moving afterwards. And I don't see China moving slower at all.