Is the US shooting itself in the foot by banning Huawei?

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manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Max Demian said:
Just for the record, the best weightlifting nation at the modern Olympics remains the Soviet Union, despite being absent from the competition in the last 30 years ...
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This is a very curious comment that I had to revisit (and set straight). The all time Olympic gold medal table sets the Soviet Union at 39 golds with China at 31 and the US at 16. This is an incredibly skewed and non-representative picture of modern Olympic weightlifting. In the early years (decades ago, post WWII), the Soviet Union and the USA were titans of weightlifting. China was absent; too poor to feed themselves not to mention competing. This and the fact that the world recognized Jiang Jieshi (Chiang Kai Shek) as the ruler of China. So China hadn't arrived yet while these 2 countries were piling on their gold medal counts. Sometime in the 80's or so, doping became an issue and it was apparent that weightlifters were eating a bowl of steroids with their milk for breakfast so doping controls were harshly increased. Surprisingly, this led to the Soviet Union staying atop the medal tables while the US disappeared completely. This is also when China started to step into the weightlifting game in a meaningful way. After Chinese weightlifting picked up in the 90's, we get to where we are today, and that's China adding about 5 gold medals per Olympic cycle to their tally, driving it up to 31 and growing fast. In the last 5 Olympic cycles starting from 2000, China accumulated 25 of these medals; Russia has 4 since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, with 3 being added since the 2000 Sydney Games. The Soviet Union's 39 was racked up over so many decades that China was yet to emerge and will never grow again. America's 16 was similarly racked up over all those decades with the last one added 19 years ago in Sydney when Tara Nott won a gold medal in the women's lightest category.

In summary, in the last 20 years, the weightlifting gold medal count at the Olympic games can be summed up as USA:1, Russia:3, China:25.
 
Gatekeeper

Gatekeeper

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manqiangrexue said:
China had 3 athletes test positive in 2008 and 1 in 2010. None since. China's closest rival is Russia, and recently, Kazakhstan had risen and I'm not sure if it's combined or just one country but they had something like 130 positives together in that time. After the doping bans, Russia and Kazakhstan fell apart; only China is still as dominant as ever. Doping in weightlifting is so prevalent that in 2012, the 94kg category saw the top 5 lifters disqualified with number 6 becoming the gold medalist. Recently the Thai women's team exploded and took some gold medals from China; months later, the ALL tested positive. Also, unlike these countries, China has never has a team bust before, where all (or even most) members are caught. So 4 in from 11 years back and none in the last 8 years is really a shining example.


Yeah, going to the gym and weightlifting are different things. Going to the gym is for everyone and it isn't an Olympic event. Olympic Weightlifting is for the truly extreme athletes and regular gym Joes usually have no idea how to do it because the snatch and the clean and jerk are described as the most difficult movements you can do with a barbell. Look up Ma Strength Training Camp. Look up Shenzhen Weightlifting. You will see people from all over the world pay thousands of dollars to travel to China to wear "Team China" shirts, train with Chinese Coaches, and admire Chinese culture. If you look at their instagrams and the instagrams of champions like Lu Xiaojun, Liao Hui, you will find comments about genetic superiority.

Now about the genetic superiority, I'm not going all Nazi and I'm not the one who made the claim. It's true that some races of people will specialize in certain sports but that's not the point. The point is that those comments highlight the incredible, sometimes irrational admiration towards the strong, no matter who they are.

Anyway, you're you so specific in your check? Targeting just men and only the highest weight categories? Look at the overall medal tables at Olympic weightlifting. In 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, 2000, China topped the medal tables with 5 gold and the runner up was usually not past 2. I have to go back as far as 1996 to find a year when China got second place.

If you check Wikipedia for the World Weightlifting Championship results, year after year, China tops the tables. Most recently after a weight class switch up, in 2018, China won 9 out of 20 gold medals (it says 7 but it's 9 now after the Thai women were disqualified for doping), with 11 going to the rest of the world, but guess what? Only 14 of those 20 classes are Olympic weight classes (with the other 6 classes seen as table scraps because they do not translate to Olympic medals) and of those 14 medals, China took 8 and the rest of the world took 6. China's heaviest male gold medalist in 2018 (2019 world's in in September) is Yang Zhe, who took the gold medal in the snatch for the men's heavyweight (109kg) class. When it comes to World Records, China holds 20 out of the 39 current WRs with runner ups Iran and Georgia each holding 3. That's what's happening now, not 30 years ago.
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I think we have to becareful to compare race into who's best contest. Because it can lead to accusation of racism, or compare with Hitler's view on race.

However, having said that, there are certain things one can't deny that's down to genetics.

For example, most east asian people are lactose intolerance. Or their face goes red as soon as a tiny drop of alcohol got into their blood stream. (I'm both of these).

So if race can be caused by genetics as above, who's to say it wont affect other things in life.

For ex,ample, when is the last time a black guy didn't win the100 meters in the olympics. When is the last black guy win a swimming event? And when was the last non-chinese guy/woman win at table tennis.
I'm just observing, so please don't judge.
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Gatekeeper said:
I think we have to becareful to compare race into who's best contest. Because it can lead to accusation of racism, or compare with Hitler's view on race.

However, having said that, there are certain things one can't deny that's down to genetics.

For example, most east asian people are lactose intolerance. Or their face goes red as soon as a tiny drop of alcohol got into their blood stream. (I'm both of these).

So if race can be caused by genetics as above, who's to say it wont affect other things in life.

For ex,ample, when is the last time a black guy didn't win the100 meters in the olympics. When is the last black guy win a swimming event? And when was the last non-chinese guy/woman win at table tennis.
I'm just observing, so please don't judge.
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Right right right. But I'm not supporting racism; I'm putting away racism! How? Because at the beginning of this fiasco, some members here were complaining that the world is unfair to Chinese people because of our color and our blood and I'm saying that's only founded in association to weakness. It is because China was traditionally a technologically undeveloped country with low per capita GDP that people are racist towards the Chinese, but Chinese people, just like other people, can also be admired, even to an extreme and irrational extent, when we are strong. This is to debunk the assertion that Chinese people will always be looked down upon and replaces it with the assertion that weak people will always be looked down upon. The strong will be admired and so is the case when the Chinese are the strong. That is my point, not one of genetic superiority. I never claim genetic superiority, only genetic difference amongst the races, which sounds exactly like what you're saying.

It is very interesting that Chinese soccer fans are very similar to American weightlifting fans! America's weightlifting team has been dead for 20 years but America likely hosts the largest and most enthusiastic group of weightlifting fans, and they idolize Chinese stars! China likely has the world's largest population of soccer fans but they idolize foreign stars because China's soccer team is worth less than its weight in toilet paper!
 
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M

Max Demian

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Registered Member
manqiangrexue said:
...
Anyway, you're you so specific in your check? Targeting just men and only the highest weight categories? Look at the overall medal tables at Olympic weightlifting. In 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, 2000, China topped the medal tables with 5 gold and the runner up was usually not past 2. I have to go back as far as 1996 to find a year when China got second place.
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Obviously, I'm not up to date with weightlifting. Thanks for the detailed reply.

I was merely looking at the weight categories that my culture would perceive as "strong", if that makes sense. I know that's not objective, and that men in the middleweight (or even light weight) category are incredibly strong compared to the average Joe. But the average weight for a healthy adult male here is around 85kg. Just to stand out in terms of perceived physical strength you would have to be at least a 100kg. Hope that helps to clarify.

I don't have much more to add on this topic.
 
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manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Max Demian said:
Obviously, I'm not up to date with weighlifting. Thanks for the detailed reply.

I was merely looking at the weight categories that my culture would perceive as "strong", if that makes sense. I know that's not objective, and that men in the middleweight (or even light weight) category are incredibly strong compared to the average Joe. But the average weight for a healthy adult male here is around 85kg. Just to stand out in terms of perceived physical strength you would have to be at least a 100kg.
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In the 85kg division (which became defunct in 2018), China won the Olympic gold in 2008 (with a world record by Lu Yong), won the snatch in 2012, and won Olympic silver in 2016 (losing by 1kg to Iran). In 2020, that class will be (stupidly) replaced by the 96kg class, in which China now leads (because the Iranian champion suffered a bad injury and China won silver behind him in the 2018 World's). All classes below (81kg, 73kg, 67kg, 61kg) are China's to lose. China's 81kg champion would rank 6th out of 21 competitors if his score were put up against the scores of the 102kg class lifters at the World Championships!

The male heavy classes have traditionally been China's weakness, but by no means is China weak there. China's heavyweight champion Yang Zhe is ranked world number 2 in 2018 and super-heavyweight Ai Yunan is in the top 5. The reason they rarely make it to the Olympics is because each country has a quota for weightlifting athletes and China would rather send a dominant middleweight with a 90% chance of victory than a heavyweight with a 30% chance, even though 30% is a beautiful number for most countries. China's women, however, are strong gold medal contenders through all the categories.
 
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AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Even if China were a model for something, do you think the West would embrace it? It's like that sniper championship that happens in Europe. The Chinese were winning. Western competitors were spinning making excuses even accusing cheating. I don't know how you can cheat with a sniper competition. The notorious suspects would never accept it because it went against the narrative of their own natural superiority.
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
AssassinsMace said:
Even if China were a model for something, do you think the West would embrace it? It's like that sniper championship that happens in Europe. The Chinese were winning. Western competitors were spinning making excuses even accusing cheating. I don't know how you can cheat with a sniper competition. The notorious suspects would never accept it because it went against the narrative of their own natural superiority.
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In weightlifting, they have. A popular American champion (of the US only) weightlifter Kendrick Farris was once faced with the fact that he, a 94kg weightlifter, lifts less than Lu Xiaojun, China's 77kg Olympic champion and 4 time world champion. Farris tried to suggest that Lu was on steroids but Lu had passed all of his drug screens (including a surprise sting that the US put on him under the guise of an invite to do a seminar in the states) causing American fans to turn on Farris and trash his Facebook so badly he had to give up defending himself and gave thumbs up to all the comments that called him a jealous sore loser unfit to touch Lu's weightlifting shoes. The US government may not want Americans to look to China as a hero but when China is just so good at weightlifting, the fans follow their hearts. This model should be followed in every field.
 
AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
I'm sure there will be exceptions but not in general. It's like how people wonder how come the US is not following the world into high speed rail. The US doesn't follow, they lead. That's why they're more interested in the next generation transportation like the hyperloop.
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
AssassinsMace said:
I'm sure there will be exceptions but not in general. It's like how people wonder how come the US is not following the world into high speed rail. The US doesn't follow, they lead. That's why they're more interested in the next generation transportation like the hyperloop.
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Well, with many exceptions made, it will be in general. You have to open up more than a little lead for this to happen; in most areas, the US and China are in competition, some neck-and-neck. That is when the hatred boils over. But when China pulls so far ahead there's no hope of chasing it, that's when hatred turns to admiration. That is China's level in weightlifting; more gold medals in 1 Olympic competition than Russia and the US results from the last 20 years added together. That kind of strength is what China should aim for. Complaining about racism is not going to do anybody any good; just become too strong for others to be racist against.
 
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