Is it too late now to refit J-10 and FC-1 with license produced Euro Engines?

@ lilzz

Sorry, but with all respect, when do You expect this indigenious engine-solution to be ready and even more, when should this JF-17 be operational ???

... I would bet not earlier than 2017-2020 and the "Thunder" is already late !

Deino

tphuang said:

What is this obsession with JF-17 using western engines? There are very few engines outside of RD-93 that can generate comparable thrust and can fit into JF-17. They are basically EJ200, F414 and M88-2. One, they are definitely not going to be offered to China for license production due to the various embargoes. Two, they are unlikely to be offered to fit onto for other nations, because export clearance level of the countries that China will likely be selling JF-17s to. Third, they offer minimal thrust improvement to RD-93 while costing a whole lot more. Fourth, much additional testing will be needed to accommodate the smaller replacement engine which would cause a change in aerodynamics of the plane.

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No obsession, am just pointing it out that JF-17 can get any engine in its class, it is not depended on just RD-93s.

Well the engine may not be offered to China, but with Pakistan making JF-17s, it could be sold and can be fitted in Pakistan.

And Sir, thrust is not just the only factor, the life span, operational cost, ease of maintenance, fuel consumption, reliability all play a major factor in deciding which engine to get. What would be the use of a 2 Million$ engine, if its operational cost in its life span would be another 2 million$, while another engine of the same thrust costs may be 2.5 million $, but operational cost is just 500K in its life span. So having Russian engine and western engine does matters as both have different quality in the make, resulting in different reliability issues.

As per my discussion with PAF official, extra room has been left in the airframe of JF-17, need if arises of fitting some other western engine, without any redesign in its airframe and fuselage.

Deino said:

@ lilzz

Sorry, but with all respect, when do You expect this indigenious engine-solution to be ready and even more, when should this JF-17 be operational ???

... I would bet not earlier than 2017-2020 and the "Thunder" is already late !

Deino

Click to expand...

Operational in what sense sir ??

Deino said:

@ lilzz

Sorry, but with all respect, when do You expect this indigenious engine-solution to be ready and even more, when should this JF-17 be operational ???

... I would bet not earlier than 2017-2020 and the "Thunder" is already late !

Deino

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Pak already cancelling the purchase of J-10. After seeing the Pak-AF maiden flight, it feels J-10 cannot counter that.

After all J-10 still a 3 gen fighter even thought its better than FC-1. So, PAK might as well save the money for the J-XX.

Therefore, FC-1 will be main fighter for PAK.
JF-17 with RD-93 is ready but not a long term solution. Maybe PAK can built 30 JK-17 with RD-93 first and then wait.

It's not going to war with India anytime soon, so it can wait.
.
to do thing in parallel, I advise Pak to acquire the WS-13 cores from China and work on it simultaenously. Its better than waiting idle.


THis way, PAk can at least master the basic engine tech (well, not the top of line one).

If it can perfect the WS-13 first with help from western sources, then PAK can sell the mature WS-13 back to CHina to earn some money.

Although PAK R&D infrastrcuture not as advance as China but PAK engineers understand better english and able to undrstand the Western spec and communicate better.. Somtimes, Chinese Engineering team in a funk and in a too much close door environment.
So, if PAk can get a hand on some tier 2 engine development that would be helpful.

lilzz said:

From PAK point of view, it should NOT depend on Russian 's RD-93 for its main fighters FC-1. Russia is too close to India and it could one day end supply of that to PAK. The dependence is a major stratgic vulnerability for PAK.

Pak should put some pressure on China, saying RD-93 is not a long term acceptable solution for PAK. CHina should find an altrenative choice ASAP and don't relax now because Putin has agreed to allow RD-93 for now.

Or bettre idea, buy the WS-13 core tech from CHina, so PAK can work on that simultaneously. WHo knows PAK might able to find the solution faster with some consultation help from EU. Work on Parallel, don't ovre dependending on CHina completely.

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For Pakistan, it is a very tough game, we get sanctions from US and other western countries, whenever they want it. So we can't fully rely on them. As for Russia, yeah it is more close to India, but the recent Indian purchases worth Billions from US may have changed the stance of Russia for good to have sold us the engines. And if Russia can't so easily give engine tech to China, how come they can give it to us. Plus, Pakistan has no infrastructure to absorb such high end technology. And this is a billions game, which we don't have, and the time & efforts taken by China for their WS-10 series engine is a testament that this is no easy game. China being much superior to Pakistan if took so much pain, time and hardship to make its turbo fan engine, then forget Pakistan.

We do hope, China would soon come up with an alternative and it gives the boost JF-17 is looking for. It can earn good money for both China and Pakistan is sold in hundreds, as it has the potential.

So crux is, for now we have to depend on others for our engine and aviation and many defence requirements.

lilzz said:

Pak already cancelling the purchase of J-10. After seeing the Pak-AF maiden flight, it feels J-10 cannot counter that.

After all J-10 still a 3 gen fighter even thought its better than FC-1. So, PAK might as well save the money for the J-XX.

Therefore, FC-1 will be main fighter for PAK.
JF-17 with RD-93 is ready but not a long term solution. Maybe PAK can built 30 JK-17 with RD-93 first and then wait.

It's not going to war with India anytime soon, so it can wait.
.
to do thing in parallel, I advise Pak to acquire the WS-13 cores from China and work on it simultaenously. Its better than waiting idle.


THis way, PAk can at least master the basic engine tech (well, not the top of line one).

If it can perfect the WS-13 first with help from western sources, then PAK can sell the mature WS-13 back to CHina to earn some money.

Click to expand...

Pak has not canceled the J-10 deal, the news item that you are talking about was not worth it, as it was from a very unreliable source as no other news agency reported it. It was reported by an internet based news agency, which we had never heard of.

Even if Pak-FA has taken to the air, there is still more then a decade to it before it stars inducting, and it won't fully retire the 700-800 Indian front line aircrafts. India is planning to have 250= Su-30MKIs and is ordering more, so we need a counter to the MKIs, which we see in J-10. India has a requirement for 250 Pak-FAs and they are going for MMRCA, MCA and LCA off course, so we need something to counter these planes too.

Stealth are very costly and their maintenance would also be costly, so if China makes their J-XX and allows it for export to Pakistan, we will get at the most 2-3 Sqds, to counter the Indian threat, rest of the Indian AF is to be countered by the JF-17s, F-16s & FC-20s (j-10s).

The delay would come in FC-20s, as we need something which is capable to counter Indian MKIs, their future MMRCA deal going on and other upgraded models.

JF-17 deal for first 50 already reached, 150 target to be achieved by 2015 as our major fleet is very old and need replacement.

French deal for JF-17 radar and avionics already going on.

So,plz don't underestimate JF-17. It is already defeating the most maneuverable block of F-16s in PAF inventory in dog fights and pilots flying them are very satisfied with its performance and ease of flying due to its advanced avionics and radar, superior to our current inventory of F-16s.

taimikhan said:

P
So,plz don't underestimate JF-17. It is already defeating the most maneuverable block of F-16s in PAF inventory in dog fights and pilots flying them are very satisfied with its performance and ease of flying due to its advanced avionics and radar, superior to our current inventory of F-16s.

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Current block15 is 25 years old. You can't keep that as comparisation. Certainly not radar or weapons. Compare it with medium tech at the moment.

lilzz said:

Oh well, China got the license production of the spey engine for the JH-7A from RR before the embargo.

At least WS10A got mentioned once a while,but the WS13 suuposedly fit into th FC-1 fell off the map completely, no one is mentioning that anymore.Maybe it's already dead.

Does Arms Embargo also preventing consultation service? if its OK China should pay some money for consultation to solve the problem.

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the British said they allowed Spey to be exported because it was old engine and they had already exported some before. That's not going to be the case going forward. And again, the Europeans don't have an engine that would work with J-10.

taimikhan said:

No obsession, am just pointing it out that JF-17 can get any engine in its class, it is not depended on just RD-93s.

Well the engine may not be offered to China, but with Pakistan making JF-17s, it could be sold and can be fitted in Pakistan.

And Sir, thrust is not just the only factor, the life span, operational cost, ease of maintenance, fuel consumption, reliability all play a major factor in deciding which engine to get. What would be the use of a 2 Million$ engine, if its operational cost in its life span would be another 2 million$, while another engine of the same thrust costs may be 2.5 million $, but operational cost is just 500K in its life span. So having Russian engine and western engine does matters as both have different quality in the make, resulting in different reliability issues.

As per my discussion with PAF official, extra room has been left in the airframe of JF-17, need if arises of fitting some other western engine, without any redesign in its airframe and fuselage.

Click to expand...

yes, there are additional cost for Russian engine in the long run, but it's more than adequate in its usage. It shouldn't take an aerodynamics expert to figure out that you need a lot of additional testing to fit in an engine of completely different dimension + weight. And what kind of benefits are you really getting? In the time they are waiting for the Western engine, there could easily be a Chinese option or an improved variant of RD-93 available that would match the power of the more advanced Western engines.

M53 is a piece of junk, not worth getting.

lilzz said:

Pak already cancelling the purchase of J-10. After seeing the Pak-AF maiden flight, it feels J-10 cannot counter that.

After all J-10 still a 3 gen fighter even thought its better than FC-1. So, PAK might as well save the money for the J-XX.

Therefore, FC-1 will be main fighter for PAK.
JF-17 with RD-93 is ready but not a long term solution. Maybe PAK can built 30 JK-17 with RD-93 first and then wait.

It's not going to war with India anytime soon, so it can wait.
.
to do thing in parallel, I advise Pak to acquire the WS-13 cores from China and work on it simultaenously. Its better than waiting idle.


THis way, PAk can at least master the basic engine tech (well, not the top of line one).

If it can perfect the WS-13 first with help from western sources, then PAK can sell the mature WS-13 back to CHina to earn some money.

Although PAK R&D infrastrcuture not as advance as China but PAK engineers understand better english and able to undrstand the Western spec and communicate better.. Somtimes, Chinese Engineering team in a funk and in a too much close door environment.
So, if PAk can get a hand on some tier 2 engine development that would be helpful.

Click to expand...

I'm speechless after reading posts like this.

Munir said:

Current block15 is 25 years old. You can't keep that as comparisation. Certainly not radar or weapons. Compare it with medium tech at the moment.

Click to expand...

I was comparing the maneuverability. Blk 15s are one the most maneuverable F-16s in the entire series of the F-16 variants. Even Blk 52 is not as maneuverable as the previous blocks due to extra load of electronic equipment.

taimikhan said:

Operational in what sense sir ??

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Sorry if You misunderstood my post; I meant how long would it take to certify the JF-17 with a new engine, esp. when a new European one (which is out of question like tphuang described) would require a mayor redesign for the aft fuselage ?

It wasn't meant to start a new flame war ... esp. since I know the JF-17 is just reaching operational service.

IMO the PAF should take it what it is ... a vast improvement over the venerable types it should replace esp. the A-5C, but nothing more.

Deino