Iran finally launched Mowj "Destroyer' (read "Corvette")

No credible pics I'm afraid. The irony is that in the absence of an offical pic the Iranian news just pick a random picture of a destoyer and post it, and it happens to be a USn Kidd Class (since sold to Taiwan) so the muppets on Irandefence think that the Mowj is basically a Kidd class DDG.... Previously a RN Type-42 DDG was the 'official' Mowj pic.


so 1,400t, SSMs, SAMs and presumably a 76mm main gun. Guesses are still out on exact weapons fit but I'd guess C-802s and Crotale.

planeman said:

No credible pics I'm afraid. The irony is that in the absence of an offical pic the Iranian news just pick a random picture of a destoyer and post it, and it happens to be a USn Kidd Class (since sold to Taiwan) so the muppets on Irandefence think that the Mowj is basically a Kidd class DDG.... Previously a RN Type-42 DDG was the 'official' Mowj pic.

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so 1,400t, SSMs, SAMs and presumably a 76mm main gun. Guesses are still out on exact weapons fit but I'd guess C-802s and Crotale.

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If it is only 1,400 tons, it is not a credible "destroyer" design. could hardly even be considered a frigate at that displacement.

I believe the Iranians are blowing smoke for internal consumption myself. A no picture, 1,400 ton destroyer? Not credible.

The Iranians need to produce some pics and give us the full specs. If they do, and if they classify it as a destroyer, my bet is that the 1,400 ton displacement will be in error.

Jeff, you are right and wrong at the same time. Yep it's a corvette or light Frigate by our reckoning, but Iranian military and media consistantly call it a destroyer because as you say, they blow a lot of smoke, a bit like the opposite of the Europeans calling the Horizons "Frigates". But I'm sure it exists, you can see it on google earth next to the three Alvand class corvettes, some kilos and a mini-sub. Iran has a lot of kit that it doesn't show the media, which I agree is odd.

planeman said:

Jeff, you are right and wrong at the same time. Yep it's a corvette or light Frigate by our reckoning, but Iranian military and media consistantly call it a destroyer because as you say, they blow a lot of smoke, a bit like the opposite of the Europeans calling the Horizons "Frigates". But I'm sure it exists, you can see it on google earth next to the three Alvand class corvettes, some kilos and a mini-sub. Iran has a lot of kit that it doesn't show the media, which I agree is odd.

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Do you have the long and lat for that pic on goolge earth?

...okay, I looked out there and this is what I found. The "Mowj" seems to just be a scaled down Vosper Mk5 'Alvand' frigate design, with all ASW weapons/sensors deleted and Chinese C-801 missiles instead of the old Sistel Sea Killers, and LY60 SAM.

Here's a pic of an Vosper Mk5 or Alvand class:



This really is just a corvette or light frigate, really, IMHO, an oversized FAC with a close in AAW missile system. Sounds like the ASW on the new ship has been removed in favor of beefing up those two things. Seems they plan to build three.

I would estimate, as in times past, that such vessels will have a very short life expectancy if the US Navy becomes embroiled with Iran. Outside of a few of these type ships and the Kilos, that is all there is.

For reference, here's a pic of one of their Combatant II's with the Chinese missiles:



So, from their perspective these new vessels are much larger, but still no match for the larger naval platforms they might face. Good for regional conflicts with other navies in the region.

The google earth pic is at these coordinates:

27 08' 39.52" N 56 12'36.71E

You can see three Alvands (two oriented pointing to the west and south by the dock, and a third pointing north), and the new vessel, sitting incomplete directly above the Alvand that is pointing north.

Pan to the right and you will see three subs (Kilos I believe). Pan to the left and you will see five Hudong class FACs and four Tit class FACs.

Well the vosper desing, albeit really old one, is still one of the best of its gategory. Expecially be the engine compartment, those ships have powerfull gas turbines to enable even 40 kn dash speeds, packed with economical cruise engines for nearly 4,000nm endurance, that is par with contenporary western escorts. If the new ships reatains these features, I wouldnt call them useless.

In matter of fact, if they share the engine compartment of the Vosper desing, these ships would be lot more potential fighting platforms, than USN littorial combat ships.
They would be exactly what would be the ideal platform for 21st centurys coastal defences. A fast, but big enough to offer stable and non-vibrating hull for SSM firings even in strong seas and high speed, also large enough to field SAM system against SSM launching helicopters or even Anti-missile capacity, as well as for accompaning CIWS. Lack of ASW is wise move, as with this size, multipurpose would mean compromises....perhaps a dedicated ASW version could follow, but there isent that much sub-threads in the region to justify that.
Also, I strongly believe that there would be minerails, and these ships would come handy to defend the minefields from intruders MCM vessels.

Also, The ships size isent the weapon of these ships, but a platform to deliver it, and YJ-83 is one of the better SSMs currently out there.

Gollevainen said:

Well the vosper desing, albeit really old one, is still one of the best of its gategory. Expecially be the engine compartment, those ships have powerfull gas turbines to enable even 40 kn dash speeds, packed with economical cruise engines for nearly 4,000nm endurance, that is par with contenporary western escorts. If the new ships reatains these features, I wouldnt call them useless.

In matter of fact, if they share the engine compartment of the Vosper desing, these ships would be lot more potential fighting platforms, than USN littorial combat ships.

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Well, a couple of comments.

The Vosper is a good design and a potent craft for what it is designed for. For regional conflict, for protecting Gulf activities, for coastal partrol, etc. it is a great platform with good armament, good speed and good endurance.

However, if it should come to a fight with the US Navy and other US forces, the shelf life of these vessels will be measured in either hours or days IMHO. The Iranians just do not have the capability of protecting them, nor will they be able to protect themselves against a major onslaught by US Navy missiles, aircraft, subs, ships, or other US air forces.

Now, as to the comment that this design itself is a better potential fighting platform than what the LCS will be...well we will have to agree to disagree on that. The LCS is being designed to have a faster speed (45-50 kt sustained vs 40 kt dash), longer endurance (4,300-4,500 nm vs 4,000 nm), at full load of 4,000 tons it will carry a much more flexible and heavier weapons load (either ASW, ASuW, patrol, special ops, or mine duties on the same platform with a change of major functional duties in a day, while retaining significant core capabilities equal to and better than the Vosper)), will have a much better air defence system IMHO with RAM or MK-41, will be able to also fulfill (by design) significant special operations duties, and, very impotantly, will be able to carry and house its own very capable MH-60 helos (either two helos or one helo and three UAVs) and UAVs and launch them in up to sea state five.

In addition, it is being designed for a 95% operational availability, which, if achieved will also be very critical.

In all of these areas it will be the better platform than the Vosper IMHO, and that is not to say that the Vosper is bad by any means...IMHO, it is a good platform as you have said, just will not compare to the LCS...again IMHO.

I'm waiting to see the armament before I judge but I will make three assumptions which pretty safe:

1. The Iranian copy of the OTO-Melara 76mm gun is most likekly main gun. Not bad at all.

2. There isn't likely to be any helicopter deck

3. RCS reduction is likely to be very lacking relative to other new designs, and despite Iran having stealthy torpedo boats.


Here's my artist's impression of the Mowj. I've given it an indiginous weapons fit, all the weapons are ones manufactured in Iran. The obvious lack is CIWS but I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case.


And here's the google earth analysis which merely confirms the obvious, that it's based on the Alvand:

A quick tour of Gulf states 'large' naval assets. The Mowj will rank pretty low I expect:

Saudi Arabia:
3 x Al Riyadh class frigate
4,750t.
16 x Aster 15 SAM
8 x Exocet MM40-BII
1 x Helicopter with SSMs
Stealthy


4 x Al Medinah class frigates
2,800t
Crotale SAM
8 x OTOMAT SSMs
1 x Helicopter with SSMs


UAE
4 (+2 options) x Baynunah class corvettes
<1000t
8 x ESSM SAM
8 x Exocet MM40 BIII SSM
1 x Helicopter with SSMs


2 x Kortenaer class frigates aka S-Frigate
3,500t
8 x Sea Sparrow SAM
8 x Harpoon SSM
2 x Helicopters (don't think they have SSM)


Oman
2 x Qahir class corvettes
1,400t
8 x Crotale NG SAM
8 x Exocet MM40 BII SSM
Helicopter pad (no hanger)
Some stealth tech

well in case of USN, the weapons arent the factor that counts, but the armed forces involved, and no spite how superior single weapons Iran have, they hardly make any difference in the outcome, There I agree with you, but if you look the vessels as part of Iranian fleet, and not placing it against USN (To against almoust all other armed forces, execpt the largest are just curiosity factor) these ships do present In my obinion lot more potential than USN LCS. Perhaps I didn't state so clear, that I didnt mean to say that This desing (and only if it shares Vospers Mk5 class propulsion ar.) would be better than LSC in US requitrment, but as warship of general this category.

LCS presents some good and impressive features, but to a navy, that purposes arent hunt irregulars in various part of the world, they present nothing really valuable. The mine hunting capacity is good, packed with helicopters with MCM, The role I would like them most is an hevily armed MCM scout cruiser (if we would go back to the basic meaning of that word) That would in time of conflict counter such crafts as Missile corvettes guarding enemy minefields.
But small navies dedicated to coastal defence, such multipurpose capacity, albeit lucarative to the politicans by the bargain nature, are really a deathtrap, as you cannot achive best possiple hull for so many different tasks. LCS despite its variety isent that magnificent in pure and simple missile corvette (flag ship for FAC squardons/ more oceangoing missile FAC functions) role, mainly due the lack of state of the art SSMs and capacity to attack larger, fleet assets (I have always seen LSC to be against smaller navies assets, from ocean to the shore, not shore to ocean emphasis)

But then Again, these are only way of seeing thing issues and I look it from small navys point, you look it from big emperial navy point of wiev.


And to planeman, I dont see them ranking anyway low, but bringing Iranians closer to par with the others. Most of those fancy frigates are more home at NATOs north sea ASW operations than anti-FAC duties in the gulf. The real difference comes from the fact that most of those mentioned navies have learned the Gulf war lesson and fields Helicopters armed with SSMs.

Hey guys,

I've been out for a long time (personnal reasons) and I'm glad to be back again on the best military forum all over the net!! Pertinent threads, serious discussion, good strategic analysis... man, I love this forum!!

On to the subject :

I think the official iranian definition for the Mowj's class is "Naw-Shekan", which litterally means "ship-breaker" and can be probably translated "destroyer". But as far as I know there is no official translation of persian terminology, and so it might be called a destroyer without beeing a real destroyer according to international standarts. On the other hand there is no persian equivalent for frigate or corvette, just "nawtchhe" which means "little vessel".
Anyway, whatever the quality of this ship, it will be a very long time before we see a significant number of these in the Persian Gulf, enough time for the strategical and political situation to change completely.