Iowa-class battleship vs. Kirov-class battlecruiser

AdeA

Just Hatched
Registered Member
My original point was "if you send a BB againts a valuable target, the other side will have a great incentive to use nukes" And nukes are a sure kill solution to everything. Without nukes the rich countries would still be building ships with heavy armour. Nobody ever tested a BB against multiple strikes by SSM, and battle experience with heavy shells shows that results tend to vary a lot. Derflinger fighting on at jutland with multiple heavy hits Vs Hood blowing up is an extreme case. Since Kirov's resistence to Tomahawks is probably inferior to Iowa's resistence to kirov's own missiles, it's a case of who can hit first from further away. And in that case, in a one vs one situation, the ship with better targetting systems wins. Multiple convencional hits, even without sinking a ship, will probably blind it, so if kirov scores a few initial hits and nobody else his around (wich would be very weird) it can then finish the job. It's a Bismarck situation. If you can stop it and take out the fire control, the rest will follow. The weak point of the Iowas was a long unprotected bow, and protection against underwater hits by (shallow) diving shells.
And russian SSM where designe for maximum demage against carriers, not against BB. might make a difference...
 

Lezt

Junior Member
My original point was "if you send a BB againts a valuable target, the other side will have a great incentive to use nukes" And nukes are a sure kill solution to everything. Without nukes the rich countries would still be building ships with heavy armour. Nobody ever tested a BB against multiple strikes by SSM, and battle experience with heavy shells shows that results tend to vary a lot. Derflinger fighting on at jutland with multiple heavy hits Vs Hood blowing up is an extreme case. Since Kirov's resistence to Tomahawks is probably inferior to Iowa's resistence to kirov's own missiles, it's a case of who can hit first from further away. And in that case, in a one vs one situation, the ship with better targetting systems wins. Multiple convencional hits, even without sinking a ship, will probably blind it, so if kirov scores a few initial hits and nobody else his around (wich would be very weird) it can then finish the job. It's a Bismarck situation. If you can stop it and take out the fire control, the rest will follow. The weak point of the Iowas was a long unprotected bow, and protection against underwater hits by (shallow) diving shells.
And russian SSM where designe for maximum demage against carriers, not against BB. might make a difference...

lets see;
Indefatigable went down with 5 hits from Von Der tan's 11 inch,
Queen Mary went down with 2 hits from Derfflinger
not to mention many of the ships were mission killed that day. Hood was not alone.

I will not underestimate on the SS-N-19, a 16" gun have a muzzle enegy of around 787 Mj (1200 kg @ 810 m/s) while the SSM will have around +541 Mj (750 kg+ missile weight @ 850 m/s) of kenetic enegy + 3459 Mj of explosive energy.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Gents..I mentioned this previously if the USN still had the Iowas in commission they would never go to sea alone. Never. That's not how the USN operates.

In July 1986 the first battleship battle group to deploy to the Western Pacific since the Korean War included USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62), USS LONG BEACH (CGN-9), USS MERRILL (DD-976), USS KIRK (FF-1087), USS THACH (FFG-43), USNS PASSUMPSIC (T-AO-107) and USS WABASH (AOR-5).

Nowadays a SAG may look like this..

If the BBs were to battle today do you have any idea how the layered defense of a USN surface action group would work? Trust me the BB would not sail alone..There would be at least on LA class SSN. Two Arliegh Burke DDGs possibly a Tico and for sure two FFGs.(fodder)
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
This is a purely hypothetical scenario comparing two ship classes from a purely academic p.o.v, meaning there is no broader implications following on from this. Bring in other factors just defeats the purpose of the whole exercise.

The USN has the most powerful fleet in the world, no one disputes that. Bringing in fleet elements serves only to raise the strength of the USN as a sort of trump card that will result in the USN ship winning in pretty much every scenario. It just feels like a cop-out to avoid having to deal with the actual question posed.
 

AdeA

Just Hatched
Registered Member
lets see;
Indefatigable went down with 5 hits from Von Der tan's 11 inch,
Queen Mary went down with 2 hits from Derfflinger
not to mention many of the ships were mission killed that day. Hood was not alone.

I will not underestimate on the SS-N-19, a 16" gun have a muzzle enegy of around 787 Mj (1200 kg @ 810 m/s) while the SSM will have around +541 Mj (750 kg+ missile weight @ 850 m/s) of kenetic enegy + 3459 Mj of explosive energy.

British BC all where sunk because they lacked protection for their ammo magazines. Hood, Renown and Repulse where built with the same design faults, and Hood was never rebuilt. German designs where better, and after Dogger Bank German demage control was improved. Iowa his a much later design, built by people who had loads of data from WWI and from building the South Dakotas and who had for the first time the chance to build a ship has big has they wanted, free from treaty limitations.
Building well protected ships was a art that reached it's peak in the 40s, and during the cold war protection was a low priority because everybody expected to use nukes from day one and there was no point in trying to build a nuke proof ship. Then in 82 the RN lost 2 DDG and 2 FFG to hits from weapons that wouldn't probably have sunk a WWII CL, and everybody had to rethink protection standards.
Kirov is a late 60 concept, built in the 70, and pre falklands. It is a modern day BC, all fire power and speed but little protection. Now we see the Tommahawk has a land attack weapon, but the B and E versions where excelent antiship weapons in the 80s, with long range. The SS-N19 Granit is a much bigger weapon. Both would hit, and both ship would fire salvos from long range has soon has they could. So the question would be, who fires first. Here the Kirov OTH tergetting Helis can give her a edge. The Granit was designed to penetrate the deck or side of a CVN and explode inside. It would probably penetrate the splinter deck of the Iowas, but I don't think it was designed to penetrate the main armoured deck. So it would explode between both decks, wich is exactly what Iowa designers wanted.
A one on one fight (without nukes) between the best from the 40s and the best fron the 70s would go like this:
1. If Iowa manages to fire first it wins. It would fire up to 48+36 missiles in salvos (Tommhawks first Harpoons later has it closes in). Multiple hits would disable Kirov, and then the BB would close in to finish her (if kirov doesn´t sink first) with gunfire from long range.
2. If kirov can fire a salvo of Granits before being hit it will either demage or even sink Iowa, depending on luck. There is a possibility that both ships would sink, and the superior speed of the Mach 2.5 Granit vs the slow Tommahawk would give Kirov more time to fire back.
3. If Kirov fires first the best chance is to use all it's 20 Granits in a rapid salvo and turn away. Satelites can find out what happened to the target. If Kirov decides to stay around to take a look at the wreckage, and Iowa is lucky enough to survive ( the derfflinger cames to mind, having taken way more punishment than she was designed for) the Iowa could have the last laugh.
4. If Kirov by any crazy chance gets within 16'' range it´s dead.
 

Stan Okimoto

Just Hatched
Registered Member
This a direct quote:
"You Americans do not realize what formidable warships you have in these four battleships. We have concluded after careful analysis that these magnificent vessels are in fact the most to be feared in your entire naval arsenal. When engaged in combat we could throw everything we have at those ships and all our firepower would just bounce off or be of little effect. Then we are exhausted, we will detect you coming over the horizon and then you will sink us."
-Soviet Fleet Admiral Sergei I. Gorshkov,1985- Quote after watching the Iowa in a NATO exercise
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Question: since this is a completely hypothetical discussion, would it not be a better allocation of funds to purchase frigates, destroyers, submarines, and strike aircraft than to invest in one high value target…..? If the PLAN has indeed developed an “anti-carrier” cruse missile isn’t the era of these large ships technically over? With the exception of conflict with a low-tech country, or as a show the flag visits to foreign ports what need is there?
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
There is no need. That is why the USN retired the Iowa class. That of course and the funding need to operate these leviathans.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
There is no need. That is why the USN retired the Iowa class. That of course and the funding need to operate these leviathans.
The Russian's feared the Iowa class. But they are gone now.

A good question would be the Kirovs vs either a Tico or one of the South Korean Cruiser sized KDX-III AEGES Destroyers.

Lots of Tomohawk capability on both vessels, and lots of very good anti-missile defense.

The Kirov's 20 shipwrecks are a potent threat, but the Tonmohawks outrange them...and if the Tico or KDX III is outfitted for anti surface with 32+ ASMs, then it would be a tough fight if the AEGIS vessel found the Kirov first.

But the Kirov's have decent anti-missile defense too...it would be a test for the systems for sure.
 

delft

Brigadier
The Russian's feared the Iowa class. But they are gone now.

A good question would be the Kirovs vs either a Tico or one of the South Korean Cruiser sized KDX-III AEGES Destroyers.

Lots of Tomohawk capability on both vessels, and lots of very good anti-missile defense.

The Kirov's 20 shipwrecks are a potent threat, but the Tonmohawks outrange them...and if the Tico or KDX III is outfitted for anti surface with 32+ ASMs, then it would be a tough fight if the AEGIS vessel found the Kirov first.

But the Kirov's have decent anti-missile defense too...it would be a test for the systems for sure.
I find it difficult to imaging that Kirov was designed as an answer to Iowa class battle ships. USN carriers were much more important targets.
 
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