India's MRCA Update

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Did I name you specifically? I mented it for general guideline as someone managed to drag pakistan in to this thread. There are enough existing threads about Pakistan if you want to discuss on it.
....Don't be too paranoid;)
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Gollevainen said:
Did I name you specifically? I mented it for general guideline as someone managed to drag pakistan in to this thread. There are enough existing threads about Pakistan if you want to discuss on it.
....Don't be too paranoid;)


Well at least you have them on their toes...subconcious defense

India Should Take It Slow With U.S. Weapons
By KAUSHIK KAPISTHALAM


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There has been a spate of reports about a recent U.S. offer to sell advanced fighter jets like the Lockheed Martin F-16 and Boeing’s F/A-18 to India as part of a new U.S. policy to help India become a “world power.” Unfortunately, some crucial facts have been missing in the reportage.
First, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has been looking to buy multirole fighters since 2002. Last year, the government announced plans to issue a tender by the summer of 2005 for these jets. So far, India has sent a request for information to France’s Dassault Aviation for the Mirage 2000-5, Russia’s RSK MiG for the MiG-29M, Sweden’s Saab for its JAS 39C Gripen and Lockheed Martin for its F-16.
To understand if F-16s or even F/A-18s make sense for the IAF, one must consider the military, financial, strategic and political considerations.
From a military standpoint, a fighter aircraft today is not just a plane but a weapon platform encompassing the airframe, avionics, radar, electronic warfare gear, air-to-air missiles and surface strike munitions. With the F-16, there were reports that Lockheed might offer India a custom built system, similar to the Block-60 plane that it is building for the United Arab Emirates. Boeing might bid with the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, which it currently produces for the U.S. Navy.
Both jets, if fully loaded, clearly offer better technology in terms of weaponry, radar and electronic warfare gear than the non-American fighters. But there is a catch.
High-technology components and weapons need separate U.S. export licenses that may not be forthcoming. For instance, the Super Hornet’s Raytheon AN/APG-79 active electronically scanned array radar is a new addition to the U.S. military itself, and it and other advanced subsystems are unlikely to be approved for export — even to “strategic allies.” Consequently, India may have to accept a toned down versions of the fighters or pay top dollar for research and development efforts to build customized subsystems.
From a financial standpoint, one needs to look at the purchase price and long-term costs, including training, support and maintenance costs of both the plane and its subsystems. The standard export version of the F-16 compares favorably price-wise with the Mirage and others, but as pointed out above, adding the latest subsystems tends to increase the price of American fighters disproportionately.
There is also the issue of training and maintenance. The IAF can induct the MiG-29M or Mirage 2000-5 easily since it already operates older versions of the planes, while the F-16 or F/A-18 would require massive investment in logistics. The IAF also will need a lot of time to train its pilots on their first-ever American platform.
This may delay the induction of these jets and defeat the whole purpose of the purchase — to maintain squadron strength as older jets are retired.
From a strategic standpoint, India tends to go for purchases that allow it to integrate local and third-party weapons and systems progressively. For instance, the Su-30MKI air superiority fighter that the IAF is currently inducting features French, Israeli and Indian subsystems on a Russian airframe that took years of multiparty collaboration to integrate. While Dassault and MiG may allow India to improve subsystems, it is hard to see Boeing or Lockheed doing the same.
India also typically asks for transfer of technology and local production rights with such purchases. Dassault and RSK-MiG have already offered a full transfer of technology, but it is extremely unlikely that Boeing or Lockheed Martin would make a similar offer — with good reason.
With the former firms, a deal for 126 jets is perhaps the largest they might obtain and therefore they may be amenable to handing over production rights just to get the contract. With American contractors, the Indian purchase pales in comparison to the numbers they sell to the U.S. military, and it makes little financial sense to acquiesce to Indian demands.
The Indian government also likes to use big-ticket deals to serve larger geopolitical ends. With purchases from disparate countries like France, Israel and Russia, India usually spreads the dollars equitably to smooth relationships. A fighter purchase from the United States could hurt India’s ties with Russia or France, for instance, and it would be unwise for the Indian government to take such a step without securing a major U.S. political concession.
Finally, there is the issue of reliability. Perhaps to a larger extent than with other nations, the United States utilizes weapon sales as an instrument of diplomacy and has on occasion imposed sanctions even on allies to support nonmilitary objectives. This issue tends to be the pink elephant in the room when India discusses military sales with the United States and is unlikely to go away.
India’s strategic partnership with the United States is still in its early days. It would be prudent for both sides to build confidence by smaller and more specialized military deals such as special forces gear or network-centric warfare components.
India needs to learn to work with the myriad American bureaucratic agencies in the Pentagon, Commerce and State departments. The American contractors need to gain knowledge of the Indian military and its strict and sometimes quirky requirements.
A U.S.-India fighter jet deal would be inadvisable at the present time. •
Kaushik Kapisthalam is a freelance South Asia analyst in Atlanta specializing in defense and foreign affairs.

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I'm wondering also how the Russians would react to any such purchase because they might see it as the thin end of the wedge and the beginning of
he end for their lucrative arms market in south asia.

I mean look at russian pressure on algeria to buy it's arms
 

adeptitus

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maglomanic said:
F-18 was developed way after F-14 (begining of evolutionary life of one airframe where the other was ending).Still alot many people consider it to be a wrong decision which involved politics. F-14 drivers hate F-18s guts to this day(some to the point that they would rather Iranian tomcat kick USN hornet ..ofcourse not seriously though)..lol.
But to be honest if india goes for F-18 then it will be total political decision (not even the one involving money on Indian side). Acquiring Migs for naval use then going for a similar fighter and then having another capable fighter in the same class which all belong to same era is bad decision IMO. It might come back to bite IAF. MIG-29 OVT sounds like the best solution for IAF.


The F/A-18 does have its advantages. It's said that the F-14 is the most expensive Navy aircraft to maintain, requiring 40-60 manhours of maintenance work per flight hour. The F/A-18 only needs 20 hours and F/A-18E/F 10-15 hours. Though I'll admit this might not be a fair comparison, because the F-14 has a more complex airframe with variable geometry wings.

Northrop excelled at building aircraft that were light, easy to fly, simple to maintain, and relatively cheap. From the T-38 to F-5, F-20, and YF-17. The ease of maintenance on the F/A-18 today is prolly from its YF-17 roots. With fewer manhours of maintenance required per flight hour, the overall life-cycle cost is reduced, and you can have faster turn-arounds in aircraft avail for operations. Also, the F/A-18 is said to be capable of operating from STOBAR carriers in the Indian navy, versus the MiG-29OVT (aka MiG-35) might not:

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The naval requirement will be extremely significant because the current roster of competitors contains only two aircraft that qualify for future STOBAR1 carriers like the INS Vikramaditya (ex- Admiral Gorshkov) and the Vikrant Class (aka. Air Defence Ship), which will reportedly weigh in at 37,500 tonnes with a design that is heavily influenced by Italy's Cavour Class.

Those aircraft are the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and Dassault's Rafale-M variant. Additionally, the MiG-35 is related to the MiG-29K naval variant slated for operation on INS Vikramaditya. If Russia wishes to invest in the idea, a carrier-capable MiG-35K may also be doable - if the extra weight of the new fuel tanks doesn't create a problem given the hard impacts of carrier landings.


=========

If you scroll down on the article, there's a detailed explaination to advantagers and distadvantages to various aircraft considered. Basically there is no "perfect" choice and you have to accept a trade-off somewhere. Personally, if I were in Indian AF's shoes and had to choose, I'd approach France and offer to purchase the Mirage-2000 manufacturing license & equipment. France is shutting down the Mirage-2000 production line anyway, so why not buy it and put it to good use. If France won't deal, then I'd buy Russian and negotiate for best possible tech transfer and local production terms. US Aircraft are good and battle-proven, but Americans are too stingy when it comes to tech transfers. If India is going to spend billions of dollars to import foreign weapons, it should include tech transfers to benefit domestic R&D. Otherwise you end up importing arms from others forever and remain at mercy of their foreign policy.
 
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maglomanic

Junior Member
adeptitus,
We are talking about IAF's MRCA deal and not any acquisation for IN's naval wing. IN has already selected Mig-29Ks for it's carriers. So i i think the point that OVTs need to be able to land on carrier is moot.

I am in no way trying to belittle hornets. All i am saying is incase of IAF, it doesn't make much sense when comparable technology is available for which they already have considerable ground structure and expereince available.

Like you pointed out Mirage would have been very good solution (if i am not wrong IAF was all over it but red tapism delayed it to the point that French lost interest). Now OVTs sound like the second best solution in terms of technology and logistics. However Russia will have to solve alot of quality control issues in engine and avionics.
 

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Wait a minute. I've read in some articles that the USN Superhornet is in the same class as the Indian MKI. Their both long range heavy bombers. Was I mistaken?:confused:
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
crazyinsane105 said:
Wait a minute. I've read in some articles that the USN Superhornet is in the same class as the Indian MKI. Their both long range heavy bombers. Was I mistaken?:confused:
The above statemet is true. As mentioned by me earlier, I never understood the entry of the Gripen in the MRCA tender as Gripen is not an MRCA but rather a point defender. This is exactly the role of the LCA, an aircraft which is similar to Gripen.

Now DRCA jets like EF-2000 and F/A-18 E/F are compeing for the tender. This too is unncessary as IAF already operate the Su-30 MKI.

There was a detailed article in the newspapers which asked IAF pilots for their choice of the MRCA. Their first choice was Mirage-2005 and then the MiG-35. F-16, Gripen, EF were not considered.
It is true that politics influences the entry of non-MRCA aircraft such as Gripen, EF-2000 and F/A-18.

It is likely that the tender shall be split into land aircraft and naval aircraft (for the 2 aircraft carriers that are being built i.e ADS and Admiral Gorshkov).
Thus the tender for the land version may be won by either MiG-35 or Rafale, and the Naval tender by F/A-18 E/F jets.
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
My speculation about IAF splitting the order into naval and land aircraft has been proven to be incorrect very soon. I hope that my wish for the 1st LCA to join the IAF by this year should not be unfulfulled.

India asks Russian proposal for fighters
Thursday, June 1, 2006 (Moscow):

India has asked Russia's Mig aircraft corporation to send a request for proposal for the acquisition of 126 fighters, said Air Force chief SP Tyagi.

Tyagi, who watched a demonstration flight of the Mig-35 (Mig-29ovt) fighter at a Russian air force base near Moscow, termed the demonstration as "brilliant."

He also clarified that the IAF was looking for an aircraft "to win wars" and not for "impressive demonstrations".

"Any aircraft is nothing but a "khokha" (shell), but what matters is, what is inside it," Tyagi underscored.

The air chief is on a weeklong Russia visit, which he qualified as "military-diplomatic", saying it was "fallout" of strategic political relations between the two nations.

He said that for the first time the factor of "life cycle cost or ownership cost" was being taken into account while acquiring a fighter.

Tyagi said the tenders would be invited soon.

"How to calculate the ownership cost was the problem and that's why it has taken more time in taking a decision," he said.

Tough challenge

According to earlier reports, Russia's Mig-35 would be facing a tough challenge from the battle-proven US F-16 and F-18.{ Incorrect. F-16 is least preference of IAF pilots}

The air chief said that any decision would be taken after studying the merits of a fighter offered to India "at great depth".

He also declared that all the 126 fighters for the IAF would be purchased from a "single vendor."

Tyagi also held extensive talks with his Russian counterpart General Vladimir Mikhailov and visited Sukhoi and Mig aircraft corporations.

Joint training centre

The air chief discussed the opening of a joint training centre in India for regional countries acquiring Russian Sukhoi planes.

Local media reports claim that India is to acquire flight simulators produced by aerospace equipment corporation for training the pilots of SU-30mki multi role fighters.

Tyagi said that India was talking to Russia on the joint development and production of a fifth-generation fighter.

He said that the Indian and Russian Air Forces were evaluating their requirements, specifics and vision of fifth generation fighter.


After completing talks, Tyagi left for Irkutsk where he would inspect 12 SU-30mki fighters, which India is swapping for older FKF and FMKF versions.

On the last leg of his visit he will interact with the officials of St. Petersburg-based engine and avionics designers and producers in his capacity as a "customer" of their product. (PTI)

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crazyinsane105

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Yes, it seems like the IAF is leaning heavily towards the Mig-35. Very smart choice since it will be much easier to integrate and will have an AESA capability in the near future. As for the Superhornet, best if the IN gets a hold of that since those Harriers need to get replaced anyway.
 
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