Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

HaldilalSDF said:

If you go into details you will clearly see the differences. But always it's dependent's on the persons perspectives.

Click to expand...

Yeah and if you go into detail with Chinese J-20 you will see there's MONUMENTAL differences to F-22 and F-35 but Jai Hinds don't even bother lol.

If you go into details with HQ-17AE and Tor-M1, there are even bigger details different than in India's stolen "loyal wingman" design. Why should Indians not be labeled thieves, hackers, and copycats? Clearly it is right if the same measure is applied.

In all seriousness, I get it. Good engineering design converges. This is why UK's Russia's and America's all converge toward that and India's does too. I don't care that it's the same design. It makes sense to be very similar. I'm just poking fun at Jai Hind attitudes to Chinese ones where the design is also very similar like the new carrier AWACS aircraft which is also used by the Soviets back in the day.

This is a funny picture.



Of a model showing a Russian program. Anyone can see that unless this craft is scaled up dramatically (and given completely different propulsion options) there is no way it's even carrying ONE of those weapons without sacrificing a lot of range and speed. Where are all those bulky control and comms equipment going? Where are all those sensors going? The ones that allow it to detect and engage targets and the ones that allow the controller to figure out something that resembles crappy situational awareness.

However these types of 'wingman' drones are meant to be very cheap and easy to mass produce and fielded in thousands. They are also more expendable and certainly designed to be deployed by bomber or heavy lifter. The Chinese, Americans and Russians can do that because they have their own lift platforms and bombers to modify to carry these types.

The previous Chinese study included a booster missile carrier carrying several medium range missiles that are dropped from the booster carrier once the fuel is out and this is supposed to maximise the energy and range of those MRAAMs. It's a decent concept and easy to do if tracking and guidance range is up to the task and they should be with China at least.

This is the same concept except with more turning ability but more complexity and less energy (rocket vs small engine). The true loyal wingman will be something like the Hunter drone and Dark Sword UCAV. Both are the size of medium weight fighters without pilot/s and pilot facilities.

This stuff is a glorified missiles carrier that limits all domains of range, speed, and payload if it wants good control, comms, sensors, and autonomy. Or compromise accordingly. It is worthwhile though because they are an improvement like a rocket boosted missile carrier booster which Americans have disclosed not long ago.

A proper loyal wingman should have decent payload of at least two MRAAMs... they are near useless once those missiles are gone because autonomous dogfighting is going to be hilarious and nothing like those hollywood movies. Unless full broadspectrum AI is achieved and these particular types of "wingman" look like they struggle with a 3g turn. Short range missiles also decent but not as effective as having MR ones. Good speed of at least Mach 1 and ideally supercruise capability to boost range and energy for actual combat and to land again. Especially to keep up with 5th gens at the front. I mean frontline is exactly where these things are supposed to be fighting.

All of this involves at least one heavy thrust engine in the Al-31, WS-10, F110 class or above or two medium thrust engines but that means costs and maintenance time etc go up, serviceability go down. So one engine for sure... hmm Russian Hunter drone - one heavy thrust engine... Chinese Dark Sword drone - supposedly one engine too most likely WS-10 variant or WS-15 if and when ready. GJ-11 drone - one medium thrust engine and craft is subsonic, useless as a wingman.

These are good for attrition if they can be dropped in numbers to maximise energy. The Americans can easily develop a class of similar vehicles designed to be dropped from the plethora of suitable aircraft they have. The Russians too. Okay so it starts to make a bit more sense for them. These craft do NOT have good speed or good turning performance or good range or good payload. BUT they seem easy to develop because they're essentially larger and glorified target drones with one tiny internal bay and equipment fit out. The equipments and subsystems are DIFFICULT to fully develop. This is where I'm a bit less confident in India delivering. What's even more difficult is autonomy or control systems that are linked to airborne controllers and EW/Jam proof. I've no doubt the Americans can do all that and already have with the Boeing craft and XQ-58 (except the dropped part but that's easily modified if they want).

If one wishes to make a big fuss and a private company wishing attract investment from anyone especially Indian gov (cough corruption cough), then they could easily just build a flyable shell not anymore technically difficult than building a target drone is. But don't bother with the real technical challenges - communication, control, limited autonomy, weapons suite, sensors, controller side development (more difficult than the former stuff).

The real technical challenges are expensive and invisible. They also take decades of experience and building up towards. This isn't developing the full platform (including controller side equipment and mods onto AEWC) for a CH-3/4/5 WL-x level MALE or HALE strike/recon drone. It's much harder. Something the most well funded, well connected, cooperative, advanced industrial and experience based, western developers are only beginning to enter test phase. I wouldn't believe China in the 1980s after just mastering the Mig-21's engineering and design to modify their own and then claiming to have nearly finished a F-22 level fighter. This is basically the equivalent but without as much funding required.

I'm sure it'll fly in near future but fly just like a target drone can fly. I'm sure India can develop all that like the US has done as well. But that'll take at least a decade to begin with developing and making own Global Hawk and Reaper level comprehensive platforms and supporting equipment which India has not yet achieved even in small isolated components.

ougoah said:

Both typical main layouts - with intake on top of fuselage and with intake on each side, are in that rendering in the Indian image. These things can barely carry one medium range air to air missile and probably carry nowhere near as much fuel as required to be as effective a wingman. If they want to carry more fuel, they need more powerful engines and a larger frame that will also slow their speeds down as if they aren't slow enough already.

The western powers are pursuing this class of "wingman" as a very low tier "wingman" that join in with swarms and directed by commanders close to the fighting. You can't have ground stations controlling them because they are stationary and those station positions limit where these "wingmen" can be operated and how far they can fly. Even at speed of light comms, there may be seconds worth of delay depending on the fight. Once sensors and processing speeds are accounted for, there could be 10 seconds of delay lol.

So either have airborne control or autonomous control. India has opportunities of course to develop both but there is no way that is done or even close to being developed. India has more chance of developing commercial fusion than it does with AI controlled. India has close to no AI industry. No supercomputing. No exascale computing. No quantum computing. No autonomous driving industry of merit. Not even airborne control experience let alone development and manufacturing.

All the core ingredients necessary for an effective loyal wingman, India not only doesn't have experience operating foreign ones, they have had zero experience even reverse engineering two generation old foreign ones in control, comms, autonomy (limited narrow AI), or the sensors necessary. And here the Jai Hind blind chest thump is full of merit simply because a garage assembling a drone (easy) is concluded to be a full blown true loyal wingman that can be introduced within 10 years? Yeah commerical nuclear fusion is more likely.

Click to expand...

Yes. Indeed.

Research and Development is shoddy. The lack of comprehensive development across various sectors and industries Is showing.

Maybe that wingman UAV has at best a flight control system, control surfaces and a body.

Im curious about the engine too.

Xsizor said:

Yes. Indeed.

Research and Development is shoddy. The lack of comprehensive development across various sectors and industries Is showing.

Maybe that wingman UAV has at best a flight control system, control surfaces and a body.

Im curious about the engine too.

Click to expand...

The engine they can readily source from Russia or France. They could even buy American or British engine for this since they all have similar programs for small "wingman" drones. We know the western ones are almost certainly properly commanded from airborne positions and possibly with decent autonomy, at the very least take off, landing, and following certain formations etc. They may even have limited combat autonomy by now.

Russia's Hunter drone along with China's Dark Sword, both seem to be pursuing a higher end wingman type. Something the Americans can do with whatever replaces X-47B and programs that have produced large UAVs like RQ-170 and RQ-180.

I think China may be wishing to incorporate the WS-15 onto the Dark Sword but it's typical of China to keep secret until either a strategic imperative and deterrence is required or something better is close to being ready. WZ-8 has been flying for a while before they revealed it. In fact I would consider all those satellite leaks of black triangular drones to be when they leaked the WZ-8 to the Americans and whatever other drones China's still got under black projects. There was that other one with smaller wings where the WZ-8 has no wing sweep variance. Maybe just a modular design of the same platform.

In any case, India has yet to develop and manufacture drone command centres that are even the equivalents of yesteryear's Chinese MALE and HALE drones.

ougoah said:

The engine they can readily source from Russia or France. They could even buy American or British engine for this since they all have similar programs for small "wingman" drones. We know the western ones are almost certainly properly commanded from airborne positions and possibly with decent autonomy, at the very least take off, landing, and following certain formations etc. They may even have limited combat autonomy by now.

Russia's Hunter drone along with China's Dark Sword, both seem to be pursuing a higher end wingman type. Something the Americans can do with whatever replaces X-47B and programs that have produced large UAVs like RQ-170 and RQ-180.

I think China may be wishing to incorporate the WS-15 onto the Dark Sword but it's typical of China to keep secret until either a strategic imperative and deterrence is required or something better is close to being ready. WZ-8 has been flying for a while before they revealed it. In fact I would consider all those satellite leaks of black triangular drones to be when they leaked the WZ-8 to the Americans and whatever other drones China's still got under black projects. There was that other one with smaller wings where the WZ-8 has no wing sweep variance. Maybe just a modular design of the same platform.

In any case, India has yet to develop and manufacture drone command centres that are even the equivalents of yesteryear's Chinese MALE and HALE drones.

Click to expand...

Its all speculative at this time about engine. And about sensors to early to say.