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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
i will add some of my own opinions as to why amur was chosen amon the subs participating p75i
Well to date this has been billed as an emergency purchase and measure. I was not aware that Amor had Ben selected for 75i.

I understand full well why India would do this, or all of the reasons you mentioned. However, I also understand the concerns.

Time will tell if it is a good decision...but it is the Indian decision to make, and despite some of the recent issues, the Indian Navy knows what it is about.
 

Tako

New Member
besides i will add some of my own opinions as to why amur was chosen amon the subs participating p75i
1)amur is the only sub that can launch bramhos,vls mode
2)scorpene is too small for bramhos vls,the french themselves agreed and they said they will offer a much larger scorpene,but it is stil on paper.
3)all the competitors agreed that it is not possible for a deisel sub to have both bramhos and aip.the sub becomes too big,less maneuverable and speed decreases.

First, their are two different versions of Amur. The heavier Amur 1650 without a VLS, which the Indian Navy reportedly want to buy as a quick measure to replenish its fleet.
The second one is the lighter Amur 950 with a VlS, which the Russians have offered us for the P 75I competition. the submarine has 10 VLS for BrahMos missile and torpedo tubes. Now, i believe the submarine will have serious performance issues. Consider the Virginia Class SSN which weighs 7500+ tonnes and carries only 12 Vertically Launched Tomahawk missiles. Meanwhile, the Amur class submarine which is a 1000+ tonne submarine, is conventionally powered can carry 10 Vertically Launched 3 tonne missiles [Which are more heavier than 12 Tomahawks]? Sounds Funny !!
The same point has been raised by other submarine builders participating in the competition.

4)as for the spanish s80:mad:who wants a submarine that cant resurface after it has dived,only the taliban will have interest in it ,if india waits around for the spanish to fix its overweight problems ,well it will be too late to rescue its underwater forces.
The overweight issue is already being addressed and i presume they will increase the length of the submarine. Just to add, S-80 has the most advance AIP in operation as of today. The first submarine should undergo trials by early 2016
Navantia has ample time to correct the problem. The P-75I contract won't be signed before 2016. the Navy knows this, that is why they are requesting to buy submarines directly from a foreign vendor as a stop gap.

5)german type 216(please note that its the type 216 that's offered and not the type 214
Type 216 is just a modified/enlarged version of Type 214 with a VLS.

6)@tako as for your worries about aip ,Fincantieri has offered in partnership with russia their aip system,wire guided black shark torpedoes are also offered ,something not seen in previous russian subs,making them much more dangerous
You are talking about the S-1000 submarine, which is an entirely different project. Anyways, the project is already dead. One of the JV member is blacklisted and with the ongoing crisis in Ukraine the JV is not possible'

project 75i,it is compulsary that at least half of theses subs have bramhos vls.
The BrahMos VLS condition will delay the project. It is not an easy task for a submarine to launch a 3 tonne cruise missie vertically. the IN will change the requirement once the BrahMos-M contract is signed.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
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39913014.cms


Time's of India said:
NEW DELHI: India and the US on Friday agreed to go in for co-development and co-production of advanced weapon systems, with Washington pushing New Delhi for early decisions on offers ranging from the next-generation Javelin anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) to unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

But India will not jump headlong into any venture without first ensuring the US sticks to its promise to provide "ground-breaking technology" on par with its closest allies, even though the Modi government is keen to strengthen the moribund domestic defence production sector.

The decision to revive the floundering Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) between the two countries, as also work towards the extension of the 10-year India-US defence framework, was taken after visiting US defence secretary Chuck Hagel held delegation-level talks with his Indian counterpart Arun Jaitley.

As the name DTTI suggests, the US is eager about "trade" as the world's largest arms exporter. Having bagged Indian defence deals worth $10 billion in the last decade, with more like the ones for Apache and Chinook helicopters on the way, has only served to whet its appetite. But for India, the focus is on "technology" to ensure it can build a robust defence-industrial base to shed its embarrassing tag of being the world's largest arms importer.

So, it was the importance of "technology transfer" that Prime Minister Narendra Modi stressed in his meeting with Hagel, holding that he was keen to see "further progress" in bilateral defence ties, including in "defence manufacturing in India".

Jaitley, in turn, said, "The development of our own indigenous capabilities is a major objective that guides our present policies. In this direction, we have taken steps to raise the FDI cap (from 26% to 49%) in the defence sector. We look forward to work closely with the US in this regard," said Jaitley.

But India is still not fully convinced about the US as a reliable long-term, high-end defence supplier, given its propensity to impose sanctions and stringent export control laws. The US, however, believes it can effectively marry trade and technology, with benefits for both.

Stressing that "security, stability, freedom of sea lanes, economic development and energy" is in the interest of the two countries as well as the Asia-Pacific region, Hagel said the US wants to be a partner in India's military modernization and recognises its needs to strengthen its defence-industrial base.

The US will be led by its under secretary of defence acquisition, technology and logistics Frank Kendall in the DTTI. The Indian points-man, in turn, will be the defence production secretary, which is a comedown from before since former national security advisor Shivshankar Menon earlier led the initiative. Jaitley, incidentally, accepted Hagel's invite to visit Pentagon when he goes to Washington to attend the annual meetings of IMF and World Bank.

Of all the joint development and production offers, the US is especially keen to push the case for fourth-generation Javelin ATGMs, which even President Barack Obama has personally pushed with Modi. The Indian ATGM project, after all, is going to be worth over $2.5 billion. Javelin is in contention with the Israeli "Spike" tank-killing missiles to bag the project, as was earlier reported by TOI.

With the 1.13-million Indian Army grappling with a huge shortfall of 44,000 ATGMs of different types, the project involves an initial direct acquisition of the man-portable "tank killers", with a strike range of 2.5km, followed by technology transfer to defence PSU Bharat Dynamics for large-scale indigenous manufacture. The Army is keen to equip all its 382 infantry battalions with third and fourth-generation ATGMs.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
First, their are two different versions of Amur. The heavier Amur 1650 without a VLS, which the Indian Navy reportedly want to buy as a quick measure to replenish its fleet.
The second one is the lighter Amur 950 with a VlS, which the Russians have offered us for the P 75I competition. the submarine has 10 VLS for BrahMos missile and torpedo tubes. Now, i believe the submarine will have serious performance issues. Consider the Virginia Class SSN which weighs 7500+ tonnes and carries only 12 Vertically Launched Tomahawk missiles. Meanwhile, the Amur class submarine which is a 1000+ tonne submarine, is conventionally powered can carry 10 Vertically Launched 3 tonne missiles [Which are more heavier than 12 Tomahawks]? Sounds Funny !!
The same point has been raised by other submarine builders participating in the competition.

Well, Amur 950 would not carry BrahMos but some lighter missiles in 10 VLS tubes (probably Klub ) . Also, it would have only 4 X 533mm torpedo tubes without reloads, while 1650 has 6 and carries reload (maximum 18 torpedoes or missiles) . Finally, endurance of 950 is 30 days, while endurance of 1650 is 45 days.

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aksha

Captain
Russia prepares 5th-generation fighter for India
s8J2xbL.jpg
Moscow, Aug 15 (IANS/ITAR -TASS) Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) has completed the front-end engineering design of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) for India's Air Force, UAC president Mikhail Pogosyan said Friday.

The UAC is preparing the contract on the aircraft's full-scale development for signing, he told Arms-Tass.

"We have completed the front end engineering design stage," he said. "The work on the preparation of the contract on the FGFA full-scale development is now in progress," he added.

The FGFA development and production is a major project of Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation.

The two sides signed the corresponding agreement in Moscow in October 2007. In December 2010, Russia's Rosoboronexport arms exporter, Sukhoi company and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited signed a contract on the aircraft's front end engineering design development.

Since January 2012, a group of India's specialists has been working in Russia, and Russia's specialists in India. The two sides have established the required information exchange.

FGFA is developed on the basis of the Russian PAK FA fifth-generation fighter project. However, it will differ from the prototype to meet Indian Air Force's specific requirements.

--IANS/ITAR-TASS
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no_name

Colonel
With no side weapon bays to be seen I wonder if they will use a mechanism to place the missile out of the bay before launching it off the rail. Because if drop launch is the only option then the missiles won't be able to be fired while the plane is maneuvering.
 

Gessler

New Member
Soon Kolkata commissioned but without Barak-8 :confused:

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It's not like anyone is looking to take Kolk to war without SAMs onboard.:eek:

Even the Royal Navy's T45s were commissioned without their principle anti-ship armament in place.

The Barak-VIII is going to take some time to get ready anyway. But personally, I'm not too worried about it
because with the ship, radar & CMS interfacing in place, the missiles can be installed anytime.
 

Gessler

New Member
With no side weapon bays to be seen I wonder if they will use a mechanism to place the missile out of the bay before launching it off the rail. Because if drop launch is the only option then the missiles won't be able to be fired while the plane is maneuvering.

FGFA will have two large weapon bays in between the inlet ducts and two smaller bays near the wing root.

All planes have to maintain a certain speed & heading while launching missiles, maneuvering all that much during
launch isn't possible for any plane, with or without IWBs.
 
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