Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
As I suspected, the Indians have not even touched the ship at all. That one year guarantee period is going to be the Indians' equivalent of Liaoning's sea trail period. I don't think actual trainings with aircraft is going to be conducted until the end of that one year period.
Well, Eng, only time will tell this.

The people the Russians are sending are to help with the transition and to provide direct assistance in the form of a guarantee should there be any problems. The report does not say anywhere that the Indians have not "touched" the ship. Hundreds of Indian crew members have been in Russia working on the ship and learning the systems for the last 14-16 months, since before the first sea trials last year. To say the Indians have not "touched," the ship is simply not credible or true.

When she enters the Ocean off of Oman she will be met by the INS Viraat task force and the two carriers intend to conduct exercises of some sort in the Arabian Sea for a week or two.

While it is true that no Indian has landed a Mig-29K on the deck, or taken off yet, I expect that will change very soon.

The Indians have stated their intentions to begin exercising their pilots off of the Virkamaditya very soon. They already have ll of the Mig-29Ks in service, the entire squadron. Those pilots are already running through the equivalent of the Chinese Naval Aviation training center in India (at Goa I believe) and getting their certifications there.

I expect very quickly, probably within 4-6 weeks of the vessel docking at the home base that they will be landing and taking off of her. They have stated they intend to have initial operation capability of the aircraft on the carrier within six months.

We shall see whether they achieve it or not.
 
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FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Maybe Virkamaditya homeport is not Mumbai but Karvar 14°46'3.28"N 74° 8'32.17"E , one reason the Kilo sunk occupies the pier where is normally moored the Viraat and also because of this, this one and some ships with about 3000 sailors are moored a kilometer away.

With the Indian fleet increases in size, Mumbai naval base is too small now.

A chance in this misfortune with this Kilo which exploded and sunk, Kilo are double hulled, not the Type 209 and if very large explosion took place on one of them it can not be taken that a close Kilo would slightly damaged...
 
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Franklin

Captain
It seems that the Vikramaditya on her way back to India may have to go around Africa as they don't have permission to sail through the Suez Canal yet.

Strong as the Sun: Vikramaditya is like no other ship Indian Navy ever had

In July this year, an old game played out in the Barents Sea — a new warship undergoing exhaustive trials by Russian shipbuilders prior to her induction, being shadowed by NATO ships keen to understand what it would be capable of. During the several weeks that the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier underwent trials, a Norwegian NATO intelligence vessel kept company, steadily building up an electronic dossier.

This was a follow-up to last year when a NATO maritime surveillance aircraft heavily buzzed the same ship, dropping buoys to pick up an acoustic profile.

The game is not just old, it is one that Vikramaditya has played in an earlier avatar — as Soviet aircraft cruiser Baku, patrolling the Mediterranean in the late 1980s. However, the intense interest in Vikramaditya — whose name literally translates as Strong as the Sun — now comes from the extensive refit and modernisation it has gone through.

For a Navy that is proud of its legacy of operating aircraft carriers, the Vikramaditya is like no other ship it has had in the fleet before. It is the Navy's biggest ship for one — surpassing INS Viraat by 10,000 tonnes — and one of the most potent aircraft carriers in this side of the world, in fact the first 'new' ship of its class to be based in the Indian Ocean in over two decades. While India had to acquire older technology often in the past due to non-willingness of nations to share strategic assets, the Vikramaditya with its MiG-29K fighters is top of its game.

With the ship likely to reach its home base of Karwar in January, preparations have been made to ensure that it is operationalised at the earliest. As things stand, it is coming without any fighters on board, with only a small chopper complement for utility missions. The plan is to start the first landings and take-offs of the fighters on board within two-three weeks of Vikramaditya reaching India.

At present, Indian pilots are training on simulators to operate from the confines of the small flight deck. A shore-based facility in Goa, where the fighter squadrons will be based, is set to start training MiG-29K pilots on landing and taking off from the carrier.

Part of the training will be conducted during the journey of the carrier from Russia, which is expected to take four to five weeks. The 183 Russian personnel on duty will not only help operate the ship but also train the 1,600-odd Indian sailors on board. Strategies and operational tactics to exploit the platform are already being worked on and will be fine-tuned as the ship's characteristics are revealed in internal trials and war games.

"The plan is to start operations as soon as possible. Certification of both pilots and air controllers has to be done before the ship can formally join the fleet," an aviation officer said.

After it sets sail from Severodvinsk, the Vikramaditya will be met by INS Deepak — a tanker ship — near Murmansk. Tailing the aircraft carrier will be a Talwar class frigate, fully geared for deployment in icy waters. Additional ships, including a Delhi-class destroyer, will join the convoy near Gibraltar. From here, one of the two options to come home will be decided — the route through the Suez or going around the continent of Africa. While clearances from the Suez canal authorities have not been obtained yet, the Navy has been trying to get permission to use this shorter route home.

India's first aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, a Majestic-class ship, was acquired from the UK and commissioned on March 4, 1961. The second, INS Viraat, a Centaur-class carrier, came into service more than two decades later, in 1987. Negotiations for acquiring the 44,500-tonne Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, now Vikramaditya, started in 1994 after the ship was put up on offer by Russia.

After prolonged negotiations, the contract was inked in January 2004 and the cost was agreed at Rs 4,881.67 crore for the ship, spares, infrastructure augmentation and documentation. As per the contract, it was scheduled to be completed within 52 weeks at the Sevmash shipyard.

However, once the work began, it was realised that the scope of the project would have to be increased tremendously as parts after parts were found to be malfunctioning and needing replacement. Additional costs were agreed to in December 2009, with the ship to be delivered in 2012. The cost doubled to more than US $2.3 billion by then. A final hiccup occurred in 2012 when the boilers malfunctioned during high-speed trials, putting off the delivery date finally to November 2013.

As part of the offer to India, the Gorshkov was to be converted from a carrier designed to operate VTOL aircraft to a STOBAR (Short take off but arrested recovery) class of carriers. This involved massive redesign and modifications, including changing the flight deck to include a ski-jump and arrester gear. The changes performed were mind-boggling due to the scale of the warship — 1,950 of the 2,500 compartments were modified, for one.

To accommodate the MiG-29K fighters, the mainstay weapon of the ship, a new 14-degree ski-jump was set up.

The ship finally managed to sail in 2012, after a gap of 17 years.

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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Maybe Virkamaditya homeport is not Mumbai but Karvar.
India has already announced that the Virkamaditya's home port will be Karver.

After conducting exercises with the Viraat in the Arabian sea, the Vikramaditya will go there to prepare for air operations exercises within a month of arriving.

That is the Indian Navy's current stated plan.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Here's a great video of the Vikramaditya during the latest firing trials. They are test firing anti-ship missile decoys from their ZiF-121 launcher part of the PK-2 system . Shows good videos of the loading beneath decks, and of the bridge during the exercises.


[video=youtube;iPeEItcREGE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPeEItcREGE[/video]
 
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Engineer

Major
Well, Eng, only time will tell this.

The people the Russians are sending are to help with the transition and to provide direct assistance in the form of a guarantee should there be any problems. The report does not say anywhere that the Indians have not "touched" the ship. Hundreds of Indian crew members have been in Russia working on the ship and learning the systems for the last 14-16 months, since before the first sea trials last year. To say the Indians have not "touched," the ship is simply not credible or true.

When she enters the Ocean off of Oman she will be met by the INS Viraat task force and the two carriers intend to conduct exercises of some sort in the Arabian Sea for a week or two.

While it is true that no Indian has landed a Mig-29K on the deck, or taken off yet, I expect that will change very soon.
To date the ship has been commanded and manned by a Russian crew, which supports my opinion that the Indians have not touched the ship yet. An analogy is that of driving a car. The Russians have been behind the wheel and got a full sense of how the car is handled. The Indians have merely been in the passenger seat all this time.

Until the day when the ship is commanded and manned by Indians without hand-holding by Russians, the Indians cannot be said as competent at managing the ship. And until the Indians become competent with handling the ship, any talk of landing is premature.

The Indians have stated their intentions to begin exercising their pilots off of the Virkamaditya very soon. They already have ll of the Mig-29Ks in service, the entire squadron. Those pilots are already running through the equivalent of the Chinese Naval Aviation training center in India (at Goa I believe) and getting their certifications there.

I expect very quickly, probably within 4-6 weeks of the vessel docking at the home base that they will be landing and taking off of her. They have stated they intend to have initial operation capability of the aircraft on the carrier within six months.

We shall see whether they achieve it or not.

Oh yes, the Indians always have grand intentions. Whether they can achieve their goals is a whole other matter altogether. The Russians themselves have encountered many issues with the ship during refit and the subsequent sea trails, even though the Russians know the ships inside out. I do not believe the Indians will have an easier time, especially when considering Indians were not the ones who did the refitting.

Outside of this forum, I observe many people tend to view the Vikramaditya to be newer than the Liaoning even though Liaoning is technically the brand new ship. The Indian military is also seen as more advanced than China by these people. Anything that the Chinese have achieved, it is assumed that the Indians can do so several times faster. These may have to do with India being cast in a favorable light in Western media when compared to China. Of course, the reality is completely reversed. So, given the time frame you have provided, I would multiple that by a factor ten. That result would be my projection at which the Indians will be able to conduct landing and take off.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
To date the ship has been commanded and manned by a Russian crew, which supports my opinion that the Indians have not touched the ship yet.
But this is not so. The Indian Captain did drive the ship during the latest at sea trials. His personnel also operated in their spots during that time. The Russians were there...and understandably so...to help the Indians as they did this. And it was only perhaps 10-15% of the time the ship was out. But they have operated it, with their own captain at the helm.

And of course when they sail back to India they will be operating it. There will be about 1,600 Indians aboard and 183 Russians.

Any new vessel the US Navy gets, even when it is turned over to the US Navy, until commissioning, and sometimes longer, has builder consultants aboard.

... any talk of landing is premature.
No...it is not. They have the aircraft, 16-18 of them already formed into a squadron waiting for this ship to return. I expect that by the 1st of March time frame you will be saying something different as the Indians start landing on and taking-off from the Vikramaditya.

Oh yes, the Indians always have grand intentions. Whether they can achieve their goals is a whole other matter altogether. The Russians themselves have encountered many issues with the ship during refit and the subsequent sea trails, even though the Russians know the ships inside out.
The Russians have indicated the vessel is ready for turn-over and have now turned it over...and the Indians have accepted it.

So, given the time frame you have provided, I would multiple that by a factor ten. That result would be my projection at which the Indians will be able to conduct landing and take off.
Okay, I am saying that they will start conducting them by 1st of March. That is three months and two weeks away.

You therefore are saying that it will be about 35 months, or almost three years before they start them. That would be the late fall of 2016. You sure you want to stick by that?

Time will tell which of us is closest to being correct. And since this thread is about Indian Military News (and not really about trying to forecast when something is supposed to happen outside of the Indian's own schedule), we can see it posted and pictured right here.
 

Engineer

Major
But this is not so. The Indian Captain did drive the ship during the latest at sea trials. His personnel also operated in their spots during that time. The Russians were there...and understandably so...to help the Indians as they did this. And it was only perhaps 10-15% of the time the ship was out. But they have operated it, with their own captain at the helm.

And of course when they sail back to India they will be operating it. There will be about 1,600 Indians aboard and 183 Russians.

Any new vessel the US Navy gets, even when it is turned over to the US Navy, until commissioning, and sometimes longer, has builder consultants aboard.
The experience of the Indian crew does not come close to that of a new American crew... or that of China. For US and China, the crew is already familiar with the ship before the ship even hits the water. That's because both countries build their ships and know their ships inside and out. For US and China, the crew plays a significant role from sea trails until commissioning. These experience are not applicable to the Indian crew, as it was the Russians who refitted the ship and conducted the sea trials.

No...it is not. They have the aircraft, 16-18 of them already formed into a squadron waiting for this ship to return. I expect that by the 1st of March time frame you will be saying something different as the Indians start landing on and taking-off from the Vikramaditya.
You keep on throwing out the number of aircraft India has, but that number does not correlate with readiness of landing and taking off from the carrier. China managed to perform takeoffs and landings with merely three aircraft.

The Russians have indicated the vessel is ready for turn-over and have now turned it over...and the Indians have accepted it.

Okay, I am saying that they will start conducting them by 1st of March. That is three months and two weeks away.

You therefore are saying that it will be about 35 months, or almost three years before they start them. That would be the late fall of 2016. You sure you want to stick by that?

Time will tell which of us is closest to being correct. And since this thread is about Indian Military News (and not really about trying to forecast when something is supposed to happen outside of the Indian's own schedule), we can see it posted and pictured right here.
4~6 weeks multiplied by 10 is not 35 months.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I agree with Jeff. The Liaoning (back when it was still ex-Varyag) had an extensive shipbuilder's trial period, and during that period it didn't recover many if any aircraft (I may be wrong, it seems so far away).

The only significant launch and traps began once the ship was commissioned, in late november/december of last year.

OTOH the Vicky has also had a similar shipbuilder's trial period. But during that period she did recover and launch many aircraft as part of the Russian's comprehensive trial period. China only began the hard yards of launching and recovering aircraft after it was commissioned, whereas India will get the ship with most of the important assets tested and proven ready (having your planes able to operate on a ship safely is as important as having a pilot that can handle your plane. The IN has the first point proven when they commission the ship. The PLAN didn't). The IN has already had people onboard Vikram during the Russian led trials too, and there will probably be Russian consultants on board for the forseeable duration too. Both factors will accelerate their learning.

Now, one can point out how no indian pilot has landed aboard the Vikram yet, but they've got their own land based ski jump and landing base, and they will have Russian instructors and two seater Migs to take them through the paces once the ship reaches India.
Also, the IN's already stood up a Mig-29K squadron that has probably been training quite vigorously on the land based centres as well.

At this stage we haven't seen the PLAN commission the first squadron of J-15s -- all the take offs and landings we've seen are of test aircraft. That's not to say the PLAN are behind per se, because chances are the take offs and landings are being done by different pilots of the first squadron so as to maximize their experience on deck.



We should see the first take offs and landings done by Indian pilots (possibly with Russian instructors at first) easily within the next few months. Engineer is right in that India does sometimes make big claims with regards to its own progress and often experience delays. Tejas, Arjun, its innumerable missile programs of all size and shape, the Vikramditya itself, not to mention all their naval ship projects from Kolkata to the new P28 corvette.

But WRT Vikramditya, at this point I see few significant hurdles in them being able to at least start flight training onboard the ship within a few months. What will be interesting is to see how the IN's operation of Vicky picks up afterwards, and how the PLAN's operation of Liaoning similarly progresses.
I think the IN may have a slight edge in that their pilots have had their Mig-29K squadron activated already, and the benefit of having two seater trainers and Russian instructors may benefit them at first.
But the PLAN have their own advantage in that every piece of the ship and plane is indigenous so if something goes wrong they can fix it up themselves. Also, they will soon raise their own squadron of J-15s, and it should also be acknowledged their pilots have more experience than the IN pilots on carriers.

Such small advantages so early at both navy's carrier careers won't give either an edge in the long run.
Funding, logistics, training/professionalism, and manufacturing will determine that.
Also, we should recognize the disparity in escort capability of both PLAN and IN, which is central to having a good CVBG. The IN's current escort fleet is almost deplorable, and even once the Kolkata's enter service there still won't be enough ships to go around. OTOH we all know how massive the PLAN's shipbuilding effort has been, as well as the quality and capability of their FFGs and DDGs.

But this is already stepping into India vs China territory, so I'll stop here.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
What Engineer was referring to is the difference between the Indian crew and the Chinese crew is that the Liaoning was conducting sea trials with a 100% Chinese crew at all times, including taking off and landing with the J-15s with an ALL Chinese pilots. NO ONE else was there to teach them how to recover, take off and landing of any sorties what so ever.
 
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