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Puss in Boots

Puss in Boots

Junior Member
Registered Member
Gloire_bb said:
Indian arms sales long since are at some sort of coefficient just for being India.

But otherwise, I guess it isn't mainly corruption, it's India cornering itself by MMRCA saga into the corner. They ultimately need these aircraft, they need them for 20 years.

There's just no alternative - air force effectively cut it themselves. Corruption part here isn't price per se, it's as if India was destroying its alternatives over last 10 years sort of on purpose.
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These factors are not contradictory;
destroying domestic manufacturing capacity is a common tactic used by the comprador class.
By bribing officials to restrict or suppress domestic manufacturing, they force the country to import large quantities of goods, from which the comprador class reaps excessive profits, a portion of which is then used to bribe officials. This is a self-sustaining cycle, broken only when a player in the cycle ceases to be driven by profit.
 
Gloire_bb

Gloire_bb

Colonel
Registered Member
Puss in Boots said:
These factors are not contradictory;
destroying domestic manufacturing capacity is a common tactic used by the comprador class.
By bribing officials to restrict or suppress domestic manufacturing, they force the country to import large quantities of goods, from which the comprador class reaps excessive profits, a portion of which is then used to bribe officials. This is a self-sustaining cycle, broken only when a player in the cycle ceases to be driven by profit.
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Tbh in Indian case i doubt it's profits as much as really cool factor of *french (flying) car*. Literally for idk tinder photos etc.

Don't get me wrong, Rafale is a nice aircraft and it's a product that is indeed needed by IAF. But main driving factor, given how persistent this trend is, seems to be something just absolutely basic.
 
_killuminati_

_killuminati_

Captain
Registered Member
Gloire_bb said:
But otherwise, I guess it isn't mainly corruption, it's India cornering itself by MMRCA saga into the corner. They ultimately need these aircraft, they need them for 20 years.
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How about just general incompetence from HAL? They have a long history of failed projects going back to 1950's, even under the guidance of Kurt Tank. Maybe Tata would've done better.
 
Gloire_bb

Gloire_bb

Colonel
Registered Member
_killuminati_ said:
How about just general incompetence from HAL? They have a long history of failed projects going back to 1950's, even under the guidance of Kurt Tank. Maybe Tata would've done better.
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Well, HAL tried to enter this playground under ORCA project, but it went nowhere. Too many attempts, too little execution and money.

Tejas, even future mk.2, isn't quite in the niche to compete v 25t twin in strike. Even if everything will go exactly as planned, which ofted doesn't with India developed aircraft.

MKI fleet (now 25 year old standard) awaits magic upgrade.
 
mossen

mossen

Senior Member
Registered Member
How much of India's MIC problems are discrete as opposed to sharing the same symptoms as the wider economy (very weak industrial base)? I think this is the key question.

If the problems are not discrete but part of a wider and systemic issue, then no amount of funding will fix it. It also implies a pessimism that India will get out of this rut any time soon.

I don't think conspiracies about a "comprador class" makes sense, because if we saw the Indian civilian industrial base being good but its MIC being weak then you could tell that story. But what we see instead is a general weakness.

Also, China had tons of corruption in its military. It didn't prevent the country's MIC from emerging. Because the wider industrial base in China benefited the MIC too.
 
Puss in Boots

Puss in Boots

Junior Member
Registered Member
mossen said:
How much of India's MIC problems are discrete as opposed to sharing the same symptoms as the wider economy (very weak industrial base)? I think this is the key question.

If the problems are not discrete but part of a wider and systemic issue, then no amount of funding will fix it. It also implies a pessimism that India will get out of this rut any time soon.

I don't think conspiracies about a "comprador class" makes sense, because if we saw the Indian civilian industrial base being good but its MIC being weak then you could tell that story. But what we see instead is a general weakness.

Also, China had tons of corruption in its military. It didn't prevent the country's MIC from emerging. Because the wider industrial base in China benefited the MIC too.
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The comprador class will destroy domestic manufacturing, including both military and civilian products.
This is not a conspiracy theory; it's an obvious fact!
The corruption in the Chinese military stems from domestic procurement scandals, not import-related corruption, which is fundamentally different from the comprador class's actions.
Compradors were a class of wealthy locals who acted as agents for foreign capital, playing a role in assisting foreign exploitation in semi-colonial societies.
 
Deino

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Not again ... India demands this and that!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

These guys really have no clue what their role is and what they're entitled to demand!

It's truly embarrassing... and in the end, Dassault is supposed to guarantee the quality of the planes built in India by Indians, but they're not allowed any on-site access, and it all starts again.

It's so reminiscent of "Groundhog Day"!
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
sequ said:
>Be India
>Buy "Rafale is so much better (than J-20)"
>Get seal clubbed by export J-10
>Buy more Rafales

Gentlemen, this is sadomasochism manifest. Indian delusion knows no bounds.
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It's simply corruption but Indian leadership incompetence cannot sort out its own corruption issues. It's up to the political class to clamp down corruption to a degree where the net balance is working in the country's favour. In India's case, they do not. To be fair to them, it's pretty much impossible. No developing nation has solved this issue outside of China.

You don't need to be perfectly clean. You just need the system to work. India see Rafale as much as a political move as it is a practical one.

It has no desire to really get hooked by the US. This much at least India knows. To be a genuine close friend of the US is a death sentence and they will play all sides to extract max benefit. Kudos on that.

Russian fighters are too dated electronically. Su-35 purchase instead of Rafale is sure to be a dud unless it receives some modernisation. Su-57 is about as expensive and why they don't practically see the Su-57 as a better fighter for IAF is unknown. Maybe it's as simple as they've dropped out of FGFA long ago and buying Su-57 is sort of like trying to get back together with a girl you jilted at the alter.

Practically for Rafale, it is the best fighter they can realistically pick without letting US sink its teeth into them. Engine supply issues for Tejas shows them if they want to partner with US, they need to be fully committed and there may be many other issues between US and India hidden under the table. It's no coincidence that US propaganda efforts to disparage India and Indians in recent years after India China conflicts since 2020 and India's withdrawal from confronting China at the behest of America. I think smart Indian leaders see the writing on the wall for the US empire and is choosing to hedge. You don't really want to get on the bad side of the upcoming unipolar superpower who you share two land borders with.

So side with Europe since Russia can't deliver and what it can deliver you jilted before.

Rafale M for future Indian carriers. Mig-29M availability and operational state for Indian Navy was supposedly hopeless... according to India. Rafale M and European cooperation for future Indian carrier design is probably going to be what they go for.

India is abandoning its desire to fight China. It never really had much true appetite to fight China to begin with. Lots of tough words from Amit Shah in the past but it's all bluster they never planned on delivering. Bragging that Su-30MKI can see J-20 in Tibet before J-20s ever even got delivered to Tibet and claiming Rafale is better than J-20 are again all bluster and typical Indian style talk. They never have intention to do and they know they cannot. They just need to tell their unwashed idiot masses they can. Power and holding onto power works differently in India.

So Rafale is a perfectly sane choice when you can chart out your future military acquisition plans. You also know you'll only be fighting Pakistan and often you're the one initiating. You actually have total escalation dominance over Pakistan but for short wars and exchanges it's giving Pakistan an advantage. India doesn't know how to commit. If could steamroll Pakistan conventionally if it wanted to fight all the way but it wont and obviously it can't since Pakistan has enough nukes to wipe India in MAD (India obviously can do worse to Pakistan on this front). So why even get into short brawls with Pakistan?! it's a mystery of incompetence.

Rafale still easily is better than everything in PAF except J-10CE and PAF only has a handful of J-10CE. With over 100 Rafales, IAF absolutely has superiority. What is Pakistan going to do? Ask China for more J-10CE based on soft loans? China can't quite afford this because it's actually quite a significant force. 24 units sure but spare 100? China has much more need for J-10C production line unless Pakistan can pay handsomely like India does for France, but it does not.
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

Field Marshall
Staff member
Super Moderator
ougoah said:
It's simply corruption but Indian leadership incompetence cannot sort out its own corruption issues. It's up to the political class to clamp down corruption to a degree where the net balance is working in the country's favour. In India's case, they do not. To be fair to them, it's pretty much impossible. No developing nation has solved this issue outside of China.

You don't need to be perfectly clean. You just need the system to work. India see Rafale as much as a political move as it is a practical one.

It has no desire to really get hooked by the US. This much at least India knows. To be a genuine close friend of the US is a death sentence and they will play all sides to extract max benefit. Kudos on that.

Russian fighters are too dated electronically. Su-35 purchase instead of Rafale is sure to be a dud unless it receives some modernisation. Su-57 is about as expensive and why they don't practically see the Su-57 as a better fighter for IAF is unknown. Maybe it's as simple as they've dropped out of FGFA long ago and buying Su-57 is sort of like trying to get back together with a girl you jilted at the alter.

Practically for Rafale, it is the best fighter they can realistically pick without letting US sink its teeth into them. Engine supply issues for Tejas shows them if they want to partner with US, they need to be fully committed and there may be many other issues between US and India hidden under the table. It's no coincidence that US propaganda efforts to disparage India and Indians in recent years after India China conflicts since 2020 and India's withdrawal from confronting China at the behest of America. I think smart Indian leaders see the writing on the wall for the US empire and is choosing to hedge. You don't really want to get on the bad side of the upcoming unipolar superpower who you share two land borders with.

So side with Europe since Russia can't deliver and what it can deliver you jilted before.

Rafale M for future Indian carriers. Mig-29M availability and operational state for Indian Navy was supposedly hopeless... according to India. Rafale M and European cooperation for future Indian carrier design is probably going to be what they go for.

India is abandoning its desire to fight China. It never really had much true appetite to fight China to begin with. Lots of tough words from Amit Shah in the past but it's all bluster they never planned on delivering. Bragging that Su-30MKI can see J-20 in Tibet before J-20s ever even got delivered to Tibet and claiming Rafale is better than J-20 are again all bluster and typical Indian style talk. They never have intention to do and they know they cannot. They just need to tell their unwashed idiot masses they can. Power and holding onto power works differently in India.

So Rafale is a perfectly sane choice when you can chart out your future military acquisition plans. You also know you'll only be fighting Pakistan and often you're the one initiating. You actually have total escalation dominance over Pakistan but for short wars and exchanges it's giving Pakistan an advantage. India doesn't know how to commit. If could steamroll Pakistan conventionally if it wanted to fight all the way but it wont and obviously it can't since Pakistan has enough nukes to wipe India in MAD (India obviously can do worse to Pakistan on this front). So why even get into short brawls with Pakistan?! it's a mystery of incompetence.

Rafale still easily is better than everything in PAF except J-10CE and PAF only has a handful of J-10CE. With over 100 Rafales, IAF absolutely has superiority. What is Pakistan going to do? Ask China for more J-10CE based on soft loans? China can't quite afford this because it's actually quite a significant force. 24 units sure but spare 100? China has much more need for J-10C production line unless Pakistan can pay handsomely like India does for France, but it does not.
Click to expand...
Go for J-35.
 
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