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Sardaukar20

Sardaukar20

Major
Registered Member
defenceman said:
Hi,
another factor of Indian HAL not have grown to its potential was riding in two boats
one was western other was at that time USSR, Soviet union can to some extent enhance
Indian capabilities during late or mid 70s till the fall of USSR aka Gorbachev but they very
doing back and forth going into western side coming back to USSR which did not help them
well in terms of localising and with full potential soveit technology at that time
at certain point indian were like hugging with Russians and can even start manufacturing or making
own engines planes what they trying to do now after 1947 it took them a lot of time to come to start
producing Tejas that’s not even 50 percent
thank you
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China had also gone back and forth between Russian (Soviet) and Western systems. Particularly in the 1980s. The JH-7 was powered by twin WS-9 engines, which were licence-production Rolls Royce Spey engines. Many of China's latest helicopter models were also derived from Western technology.

So it's not really about riding on two boats. It's about what was actually learnt from all those decades of imported technology. India had access Russian and Western technology. And so did China, albeit to a lesser extent. Yet by the 2020s, China is mass producing 5th gen fighters, while India is still struggling to produce a light 4.5 gen fighter that was first designed in the 1980s.
 
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burritocannon

burritocannon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Sardaukar20 said:
[india should have benefitted from...] Full access to available export technologies from both sides for decades.
Click to expand...
i think this is contestable though. we know for certain that
1. the west is anticompetitive. they do not engage in fair competition and will always nip upstarts in the bud
2. the west employs trade as its preferred attack vector
so exposure to western markets is extremely dangerous for fledgling industries that have strategic implications.
 
mossen

mossen

Senior Member
Registered Member
As flawed as Tejas is, at least the situation is improving. Mk1A is a big jump in capabilities and the ramp is beginning. This time you can´t blame India since the US was responsible for the engine delays. Can it compare to the best J-10 version? Obviously not, but India has no choice but continue on this path.

People here constantly compare with China but perhaps China is the outlier? I just looked at Indonesia's airforce data today. We are talking about a country of nearly 300 million people, richer than India on a per capita basis, and yet they have no indigenous jet whatsoever. They just buy a bunch of off-the-shelf jets from whoever.

Brazil and Nigeria are both big population countries. So is Pakistan. The JF-17 would have been impossible without China. So it seems like the pattern is that very large developing countries don't have the industrial base or the political patience to carry through these types of projects. Tejas, as flawed as it is, nevertheless is getting more funding with better variants slowly coming out.

So while what happened in the Chinese air industry was very impressive, I am not certain China is a good example because it is such a huge positive outlier. Even at very poor income levels, the Chinese aerospace industry was doing better decades ago than many far richer big countries today. If you look at more countries than just China, then we can say that India is doing better than most. Part of that is the huge population, but I think in general people here seem to underestimate how much of an outlier China is. And I don´t think it is a good comparison for the Tejas. Most big developing countries have absolutely zero indigenious jet fighters. Full self-sufficiency like China is incredibly rare. We shouldn't forget it.
 
Gloire_bb

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
mossen said:
As flawed as Tejas is, at least the situation is improving. Mk1A is a big jump in capabilities and the ramp is beginning. This time you can´t blame India since the US was responsible for the engine delays. Can it compare to the best J-10 version? Obviously not, but India has no choice but continue on this path.
Click to expand...
To be fair, let's see when mk.1a will reach FOC. i.e. it's promoted as "Tejas, but actually works", and orders appear saying there's enough basis for that.

But "actually works" thing should be shown, not just said.
Especially when it comes to Uttam.
 
burritocannon

burritocannon

Junior Member
Registered Member
well yes considering america has been very successful at cutting basically everyone else down at the knees for the last 70 years, china is exceptional.
i agree we shouldnt pace india against china. in fact i think that's something the indians should come to terms with themselves because i have a suspicion that trying too hard to keep up with the joneses plays a big part in what's making them constantly overreach and stumble. what is best for india is to develop methodically at the pace that lucidly considers all of indias challenges.
 
PiSigma

PiSigma

"the engineer"
mossen said:
As flawed as Tejas is, at least the situation is improving. Mk1A is a big jump in capabilities and the ramp is beginning. This time you can´t blame India since the US was responsible for the engine delays. Can it compare to the best J-10 version? Obviously not, but India has no choice but continue on this path.

People here constantly compare with China but perhaps China is the outlier? I just looked at Indonesia's airforce data today. We are talking about a country of nearly 300 million people, richer than India on a per capita basis, and yet they have no indigenous jet whatsoever. They just buy a bunch of off-the-shelf jets from whoever.

Brazil and Nigeria are both big population countries. So is Pakistan. The JF-17 would have been impossible without China. So it seems like the pattern is that very large developing countries don't have the industrial base or the political patience to carry through these types of projects. Tejas, as flawed as it is, nevertheless is getting more funding with better variants slowly coming out.

So while what happened in the Chinese air industry was very impressive, I am not certain China is a good example because it is such a huge positive outlier. Even at very poor income levels, the Chinese aerospace industry was doing better decades ago than many far richer big countries today. If you look at more countries than just China, then we can say that India is doing better than most. Part of that is the huge population, but I think in general people here seem to underestimate how much of an outlier China is. And I don´t think it is a good comparison for the Tejas. Most big developing countries have absolutely zero indigenious jet fighters. Full self-sufficiency like China is incredibly rare. We shouldn't forget it.
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To be fair to Brazil, they have Embraer until it got taken over. Not military jets, but still one of the best plane design and manufacture companies that competed airbus and Boeing on the smaller regional jets along with Bombardier.
 
M

Mt1701d

Junior Member
Registered Member
Just as a thought exercise about possibilities, if the Indians have persistent problems with engines from the US. Would it be possible to get the single crystal blades from either Russia, China, France or even the UK.

I am not talking about the tech, no ToT, but as a product, in a similar fashion to how TSMC builds chips designed by other countries or companies.

So the scenario I am envisioning is that they refocus on the Kaveri, solve the fundamental issues other than the turbine blades, which would likely be the biggest and most time consuming hurdle to overcome, and that is if the Indians can overcome it with their inconsistent funding and lack of facilities. Something along the lines of using inferior materials to prove the concept and then designing the blades and have one of the stated countries build the components, given I am not even sure if the proposed scenario is even possible.

To start off, China is long shot but if the Indians get more grounded and actually asked and pay through the roof it could happen.

Russia could happen as it would be a good source of income and help their industry scale. Tho it might also mean that they will have less possibility of sales for their jets and engines, so it conflicts with their likely direction.

France with their current cooperation is probably the most likely of the lot. Tho again conflicts of interest.

Finally the UK, likely the one with the least conflicts of the lot.

Not sure if there are other countries with the capability but if there are, are there possibilities for the above scenario? The US is out by default.

Edit: One more note, we are going to have to ignore Indian political BS and assume that they come to their senses and actually pursue the possibility.
 
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R

Racek49

New Member
Registered Member
PiSigma said:
To be fair to Brazil, they have Embraer until it got taken over. Not military jets, but still one of the best plane design and manufacture companies that competed airbus and Boeing on the smaller regional jets along with Bombardier.
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The military part of Embraer, however, remained in the ownership of Brazil. But they did quite well with that transport plane, didn't they? But of course, most of the avionics and engines are still imported. They don't dare to make their own yet.
 
_killuminati_

_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
PiSigma said:
To be fair to Brazil, they have Embraer until it got taken over. Not military jets, but still one of the best plane design and manufacture companies that competed airbus and Boeing on the smaller regional jets along with Bombardier.
Click to expand...
burritocannon said:
i think this is contestable though. we know for certain that
1. the west is anticompetitive. they do not engage in fair competition and will always nip upstarts in the bud
2. the west employs trade as its preferred attack vector
so exposure to western markets is extremely dangerous for fledgling industries that have strategic implications.
Click to expand...
Taken over?

Embraer makes the C-390 military cargo plane, competing against others in the same class; uses a Euro-American-Japanese engine.

Embraer also began an agri plane project similar to the Indian HA-31 around the same time (late 1960s) - the EMB-202 Ipanema. Similar design, but unlike the unsuccessful HA-31 which was derived from the Piper PA-25, the Ipanema was built from ground up with a foreign engine less powerful than the HA-31. It turned out to be a huge success with 1500 units manufactured and still in production with many upgrades including an alcohol-powered engine.
 
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