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Lethe

Captain
I think there is a decent chance that India will get F-35 eventually. Sometime around the end of the decade the real timelines for AMCA and TEDBF will become clear, and this will in turn prompt a new round of foreign lobbying and thirsting from the services, this time for VLO combat aircraft. The Americans haven't yet been willing to offer F-35 to India, but a decade from now things could well look rather different, with the impending arrival of US 6th-generation aircraft putting F-35 in a similar "technological risk" profile by 2035 as F-16 and Super Hornet were when they were first offered to India back in the late 2000s. The increasing availability of such solutions from other vendors, particularly Russia, will also play into the calculations of the American establishment, as will the actual or potential induction of Chinese or Turkish VLO combat aircraft in Pakistani service. Meanwhile, we can expect the United States to continue to attempt to bring India fully under its umbrella to act as a bulwark against China. Indeed, the impetus for this is probably going to be considerably greater a decade from now as it begins to dawn on even the most fervent American nationalists that China is more "peer" than "near".
 
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Aswin_hht

New Member
Registered Member
I think there is a decent chance that India will get F-35 eventually. Sometime around the end of the decade the real timelines for AMCA and TEDBF will become clear, and this will in turn provide the occasion for a renewed round of foreign lobbying and thirsting from the services, this time for VLO combat aircraft. The Americans haven't yet been willing to offer F-35 to India, but a decade from now things could well look rather different, with the impending arrival of US 6th-generation aircraft putting F-35 in a similar "technological risk" profile by 2035 as F-16 and Super Hornet were when they were first offered to India back in the late 2000s. The increasing availability of such solutions from other vendors, particularly Russia, will also play into the calculations of the American establishment, as will the actual or potential induction of Chinese or Turkish VLO combat aircraft in Pakistani service. Meanwhile, we can expect the United States to continue to attempt to bring India fully under its umbrella to act as a bulwark against China. Indeed, the impetus for this is probably going to be considerably greater a decade from now as it begins to dawn on even the most fervent American nationalists that China is more "peer" than "near".
Anything is possible that’s for sure but I‘m of the opinion that F-35 is a no go for India. India never used an American system and have constantly rejected them. Suddenly jumping into the American system, doesn’t seems likely to me.
 

Lethe

Captain
Anything is possible that’s for sure but I‘m of the opinion that F-35 is a no go for India. India never used an American system and have constantly rejected them. Suddenly jumping into the American system, doesn’t seems likely to me.

America offering, and India embracing, the P-8, C-17, C-130J, AH-64E, MQ-9 Reaper, GE LM2500, F404/F414* suggests that the scope for cooperation is considerable. The major obstacle to India acquiring F-35 is export restrictions USA imposes on certain technologies such as VLO aircraft. Underlying this is Washington's suspicion and irritation regarding India's refusal to "bend the knee" by signing agreements such as CISMOA, and its relations with Russia in particular. But this "special value" that USA currently assigns to the F-35 token will erode over time as a function both of America's own technological progress and also the increasing availability of alternatives. At a certain point, I expect the US government will put the F-35 token on the table in order to pursue their geopolitical objectives. And as I doubt that TEDBF and AMCA are going to progress smoothly according to their notional schedules, I suspect that there will come a point where India will at least be willing consider such a proposal and evaluate it alongside alternatives such as Su-57, Checkmate, Tempest, KF-X, etc.

* If putting a foreign engine at the heart of four distinct indigenous aircraft programs (LCA, LCA Mk. 2, AMCA, TEDBF) is not a sign that the originating nation is considered a suitable source for strategic acquisitions, I don't know what is. To be clear I think India's "all in with GE" policy is very silly, but this is where we are.
 
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Lethe

Captain
US offering F-35 is certainly possible but India accepting it will be very unlikely because of multiple reasons. F-35 will come with many conditions, likely hindering any future purchases from Russia which could be like moving away from India’s present stance of maintaining balance between two sides. Secondly, it could also drag India into US-China conflict which India obviously does not want any part in. Simply put F-35 will be more of a liability for India than anything.

This discussion is amusing because I am typically on the other side of this argument: pouring cold water on the idea that India is about to leap into America's arms and abandon its engagement with Russia.

Yet one cannot simply dismiss the trend lines that have led various over-enthusiastic commentators to embrace this idea (typically it appears that they are trying to wish it into existence). India's relations with Russia (and the Soviet Union before it) are rooted deeply in its post-independence history and how India conceives of itself as a post-colonial nation. The ties are most apparent at the highest levels where the honeyed words of diplomacy typically evaporate into nothing, such as Russia's assistance to India with its nuclear submarine programs. Yet one cannot deny that India's engagement with Russia is also quite narrow in scope, with a limited trade base, few people-to-people ties or cultural cross-pollination. The Tolstoy-Tagore-Gandhi-Nehru axis can only bear so much weight.

In concrete terms, we have seen a clear diminution in Indian appetites for Russian military hardware, alongside a growing appetite for American military hardware. Much of this can accounted for in terms of redressing the balance between Russian and non-Russian equipment. See the dominance of Su-30MKI in the contemporary IAF hierarchy, and the corresponding strong presumption against the selection of a Russian aircraft for MMRCA. Beyond any real or feigned questions of balance, India has also been clearly dissatisfied both with its earlier MiG-29s and the Vikramaditya/MiG-29K saga, and in recent years has cancelled major joint programs such as FGFA and MTA.

The same period of time has seen unprecedented outreach from the Americans towards India, bearing many and varied fruits (C-17, P-8, AH-64E, F414, LM2500, etc.) Washington clearly both desired and indeed seemed to expect that India would simply fall into its lap out of sheer gratitude for Washington negotiating India's Nuclear Supplier Group waiver, that the marriage would be sealed by India "bending the knee" by signing CISMOA as the first step in becoming akin to a NATO satrapy, and that the selection of an American aircraft for MMRCA would announce this new relationship to the world. Needless to say, this has not happened, and Washington was most displeased, and it is to India's credit that she has resisted the ever-questing tendrils of the American empire to date. Yet even with all due recalibration of expectations, we are left to observe that the relationship between India and the United States is probably stronger today than at any point in history, while the relationship between India and Russia is slowly weakening.

The great forces at work in the geopolitical dynamic are (1) America's desire to make India "the new China", by which I mean (a) leveraging a vast developing market to enhance the profits of American corporations and (b) using India as a bulwark against China, much as Washington's opening to China in the 1970s was driven by its desire to use the PRC as a bulwark against the Soviet Union. This force is opposed by (2) India's own desire to avoid the
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that the US seeks to impose upon the world and (3) India's desire to maintain good relations with Russia to avoid the "nightmare" scenario of facing a hostile China-Russia-Pakistan axis.

TL;DR: I don't dismiss India's own desire for autonomy and balance in its external relations. I don't think that India is about to leap into Washington's arms. Nor do I think that India is about to turn its back on Russia. Yet the trend lines in recent decades are clearly in the direction of increasing ties with the United States, and diminishing ties with Russia. In respect of all of the above, and the gradually diminishing "special additional value" of the "F-35 token" that I noted previously, I don't think it inconceivable that Washington may one day put that token on the table in pursuit of its geopolitical objectives, nor do I think it inconceivable that India would be willing to pick it up.
 
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Aswin_hht

New Member
Registered Member
This discussion is amusing because I am typically on the other side of this argument: pouring cold water on the idea that India is about to leap into America's arms and abandon its engagement with Russia.

Yet one cannot simply dismiss the trend lines that have led various over-enthusiastic commentators to embrace this idea (typically it appears that they are trying to wish it into existence). India's relations with Russia (and the Soviet Union before it) are rooted deeply in its post-independence history and how India conceives of itself as a post-colonial nation. The ties are most apparent at the highest levels where the honeyed words of diplomacy typically evaporate into nothing, such as Russia's assistance to India with its nuclear submarine programs. Yet one cannot deny that India's engagement with Russia is also quite narrow in scope, with a limited trade base, few people-to-people ties or cultural cross-pollination. The Tolstoy-Tagore-Gandhi-Nehru axis can only bear so much weight.

In concrete terms, we have seen a clear diminution in Indian appetites for Russian military hardware, alongside a growing appetite for American military hardware. Much of this can accounted for in terms of redressing the balance between Russian and non-Russian equipment. See the dominance of Su-30MKI in the contemporary IAF hierarchy, and the corresponding strong presumption against the selection of a Russian aircraft for MMRCA. Beyond any real or feigned questions of balance, India has also been clearly dissatisfied both with its earlier MiG-29s and the Vikramaditya/MiG-29K saga, and in recent years has cancelled major joint programs such as FGFA and MTA.

The same period of time has seen unprecedented outreach from the Americans towards India, bearing many and varied fruits (C-17, P-8, AH-64E, F414, LM2500, etc.) Washington clearly both desired and indeed seemed to expect that India would simply fall into its lap out of sheer gratitude for Washington negotiating India's Nuclear Supplier Group waiver, that the marriage would be sealed by India "bending the knee" by signing CISMOA as the first step in becoming akin to a NATO satrapy, and that the selection of an American aircraft for MMRCA would announce this new relationship to the world. Needless to say, this has not happened, and Washington was most displeased, and it is to India's credit that she has resisted the ever-questing tendrils of the American empire to date. Yet even with all due recalibration of expectations, we are left to observe that the relationship between India and the United States is probably stronger today than at any point in history, while the relationship between India and Russia is slowly weakening.

The great forces at work in the geopolitical dynamic are (1) America's desire to make India "the new China", by which I mean (a) leveraging a vast developing market to enhance the profits of American corporations and (b) using India as a bulwark against China, much as Washington's opening to China in the 1970s was driven by its desire to use the PRC as a bulwark against the Soviet Union. This force is opposed by (2) India's own desire to avoid the
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that the US seeks to impose upon the world and (3) India's desire to maintain good relations with Russia to avoid the "nightmare" scenario of facing a hostile China-Russia-Pakistan axis.

TL;DR: I don't dismiss India's own desire for autonomy and balance in its external relations. I don't think that India is about to leap into Washington's arms. Nor do I think that India is about to turn its back on Russia. Yet the trend lines in recent decades are clearly in the direction of increasing ties with the United States, and diminishing ties with Russia. In respect of all of the above, and the gradually diminishing "special additional value" of the "F-35 token" that I noted previously, I don't think it inconceivable that Washington may one day put that token on the table in pursuit of its geopolitical objectives, nor do I think it inconceivable that India would be willing to pick it up.
I can understand your point of view and at one point a lot of people including me had very similar thought but that aggressive tilt towards the US had slowed down drastically (especially in recent years) and there are many reasons behind it. The reason India went towards the US when it comes to military hardware can also be a complex topic, India's bad experiences with certain Russian projects like Vikramaditya and FGFA (in both cases the services offered to India was subpar at best and the projects heavily benefitted the Russians), the deteriorating relationship between US and China in which India found an opportunity to squeeze technology out of US by using China as a bargaining chip, a chance for India to spread its influence in the western world were all part of it. Here we often make a mistake of assuming that US is the dominating force in all negotiations (it is true is most cases) but that is not necessarily true when it comes to India and the sole reason is China, India can punch way above its weight in US because US needs India for dealing with China and this has been greatly exploited by India, something the US knows about very well. There is a section in US, both in rep. and dem. camps, who oppose India and its influence, this group is an essential part and has been maintained by US as political means to oppose India when it is required (they will likely grow more aggressive in the future). This is a clear indication to the Indian side that the US might tolerate India for the sake of China but at the same time is building means to counter India if need arises.

If we take a look at global geopolitics then India is firmly in the multi-polar camp and has actively participated in de-dollarization, expansion of BRICS and improving the influence of global south but with a wish to maintain a reasonable relationship with US. If we look at recent diplomatic events such as UNGA, BRICS summit and G20 summit then we can clearly see that India took a generally anti-west stance, forcing a joint statement for Russia's sake, playing a part in expanding BRICS and criticizing the western dominance in UNGA forums. These are clear indications to me that India has no intentions to take the western bloc as granted and will likely wish to maintain autonomy. Buying F-35s would directly counter all of these developments. This is just my view though and anything can happen.

India has bought equipments from US but they are generally niche ones and in limited numbers. For example, IN rejected F-18s but got MQ-9s and P-8s, IAF rejected F-18, F-21 and F-15 but bought some Apaches. These purchases keeps US military industrial complex open for India with fully committing. As for F-414, what other option does India has? Kaveri isn't ready, RD-33 isn't the best engine out there, safran's engine is too weak for single engined Indian projects. There have also been some positive developments when it comes to Indo-Russian side of things, S-400 and AK-203 is a couple.

In my view, India's committal for a multi-polar world, preference of autonomy and the potential for economic and military growth would make it difficult for the US to ever gain a proper strangle hold over her.
 

Maikeru

Captain
Registered Member
If India doesn't want to get fully into bed with the US and is growing cold on Russia, then there's always France. As a Rafale user, India should jump aboard the mooted 'Super Rafale' program and, if possible, co-develop Rafale's successor. For their part, the French probably greatly resent being stuck with Germany as a (unreliable) partner for major military projects and would likely welcome India with open arms. Of course France also supplies India's best submarines - Scorpene.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
If India doesn't want to get fully into bed with the US and is growing cold on Russia, then there's always France. As a Rafale user, India should jump aboard the mooted 'Super Rafale' program and, if possible, co-develop Rafale's successor. For their part, the French probably greatly resent being stuck with Germany as a (unreliable) partner for major military projects and would likely welcome India with open arms. Of course France also supplies India's best submarines - Scorpene.
India is also entering into discussion with France about the development of India's first SSNs.
 

Lethe

Captain
I can understand your point of view and at one point a lot of people including me had very similar thought but that aggressive tilt towards the US had slowed down drastically (especially in recent years) and there are many reasons behind it. The reason India went towards the US when it comes to military hardware can also be a complex topic, India's bad experiences with certain Russian projects like Vikramaditya and FGFA (in both cases the services offered to India was subpar at best and the projects heavily benefitted the Russians), the deteriorating relationship between US and China in which India found an opportunity to squeeze technology out of US by using China as a bargaining chip, a chance for India to spread its influence in the western world were all part of it. Here we often make a mistake of assuming that US is the dominating force in all negotiations (it is true is most cases) but that is not necessarily true when it comes to India and the sole reason is China, India can punch way above its weight in US because US needs India for dealing with China and this has been greatly exploited by India, something the US knows about very well. There is a section in US, both in rep. and dem. camps, who oppose India and its influence, this group is an essential part and has been maintained by US as political means to oppose India when it is required (they will likely grow more aggressive in the future). This is a clear indication to the Indian side that the US might tolerate India for the sake of China but at the same time is building means to counter India if need arises.

If we take a look at global geopolitics then India is firmly in the multi-polar camp and has actively participated in de-dollarization, expansion of BRICS and improving the influence of global south but with a wish to maintain a reasonable relationship with US. If we look at recent diplomatic events such as UNGA, BRICS summit and G20 summit then we can clearly see that India took a generally anti-west stance, forcing a joint statement for Russia's sake, playing a part in expanding BRICS and criticizing the western dominance in UNGA forums. These are clear indications to me that India has no intentions to take the western bloc as granted and will likely wish to maintain autonomy. Buying F-35s would directly counter all of these developments. This is just my view though and anything can happen.

India has bought equipments from US but they are generally niche ones and in limited numbers. For example, IN rejected F-18s but got MQ-9s and P-8s, IAF rejected F-18, F-21 and F-15 but bought some Apaches. These purchases keeps US military industrial complex open for India with fully committing. As for F-414, what other option does India has?

Kaveri isn't ready, RD-33 isn't the best engine out there, safran's engine is too weak for single engined Indian projects. There have also been some positive developments when it comes to Indo-Russian side of things, S-400 and AK-203 is a couple.

In my view, India's committal for a multi-polar world, preference of autonomy and the potential for economic and military growth would make it difficult for the US to ever gain a proper strangle hold over her.

I think our perspectives are not too far apart. The major divergence, I think, is how we are assessing the F-35. It is my contention that the USA is going to become a more motivated seller as we enter the 2030s as it becomes increasingly desperate to draw India into its bloc, coupled with the diminishing technological value of the F-35 token. The consequence is that USA will become more generous with its terms and conditions in relation to India: they will demand less. Simultaneously, I believe that India is likely to become a more motivated buyer over the same period, owing to likely delays with AMCA and TEDBF programs and escalating threat from China (by then operating 1000+ VLO combat aircraft) and the potential induction of VLO combat aircraft by Pakistan in a similar time frame. If AMCA in particular does slip, and I think this is more likely than not, there will absolutely be renewed pressure for foreign imports, and the lead candidates are likely to be now mature Su-57, F-35, evolved Rafale, or a variety of still developmentally risky projects that India should rightfully treat with suspicion.

The other point I would highlight is that it is historically Washington that has been the limiting factor on India-USA relations. As we all know, the USA wants the world to "bend the knee" to Washington, whether previously in alignment against the Soviet Union, or today against Russia, China, Iran, etc. The strategic autonomy, non-aligned movement posture that India has valued has therefore been viewed with immense suspicious from Washington for most of India's post-1947 history, manifesting in concrete terms in e.g. denial of engine rights for SAAB J-37 Viggen which scuttled that aircraft's prospects for IAF's DPSA contract that eventually went to the Anglo-French Jaguar. India has mostly been happy to deal with Washington, but not under the "submit to vassalage" conditions that USA imposes upon most of the rest of the world.

Regarding F404/F414, if ADA had not allowed LCA weight management issues to spiral out of control then there would be no issue with a truly competitive selection between F404, M88, EJ200, RD33. The vast majority of lightweight combat aircraft ever fielded have made do with less thrust and worse TWR, SFC and MTBO characteristics than offered by any of these engines in their currently available forms. It is the failure of ADA to anticipate, identify and correct LCA weight management issues that has locked them into GE F404/F414. But there is no such reason to India to commit to GE for TEDBF or AMCA, yet that is exactly what they have done, which is foolish on both technical and political-strategic levels. It is misguided in engineering terms alone because what happens if history repeats itself and AMCA comes in significantly over its design weight? The choice of F414 (the biggest of these "medium" engines) as the baseline means that there will be nowhere else to turn and India will be forced to throw as much money at GE as the latter demands to further boost the performance of that engine. I can only thus only interpret the selection of F414 for TEDBF and AMCA in particular as a (misguided) vote of confidence in USA as a supplier of strategic goods.
 
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Aswin_hht

New Member
Registered Member
I think our perspectives are not too far apart. The major divergence, I think, is how we are assessing the F-35. It is my contention that the USA is going to become a more motivated seller as we enter the 2030s as it becomes increasingly desperate to draw India into its bloc, coupled with the diminishing technological value of the F-35 token. The consequence is that USA will become more generous with its terms and conditions in relation to India: they will demand less. Simultaneously, I believe that India is likely to become a more motivated buyer over the same period, owing to likely delays with AMCA and TEDBF programs and escalating threat from China (by then operating 1000+ VLO combat aircraft) and the potential induction of VLO combat aircraft by Pakistan in a similar time frame. If AMCA in particular does slip, and I think this is more likely than not, there will absolutely be renewed pressure for foreign imports, and the lead candidates are likely to be now mature Su-57, F-35, evolved Rafale, or a variety of still developmentally risky projects that India should rightfully treat with suspicion.

The other point I would highlight is that it is historically Washington that has been the limiting factor on India-USA relations. As we all know, the USA wants the world to "bend the knee" to Washington, whether previously in alignment against the Soviet Union, or today against Russia, China, Iran, etc. The strategic autonomy, non-aligned movement posture that India has valued has therefore been viewed with immense suspicious from Washington for most of India's post-1947 history, manifesting in concrete terms in e.g. denial of engine rights for SAAB J-37 Viggen which scuttled that aircraft's prospects for IAF's DPSA contract that eventually went to the Anglo-French Jaguar. India has mostly been happy to deal with Washington, but not under the "submit to vassalage" conditions that USA imposes upon most of the rest of the world.

Regarding F404/F414, if ADA had not allowed LCA weight management issues to spiral out of control then there would be no issue with a truly competitive selection between F404, M88, EJ200, RD33. The vast majority of lightweight combat aircraft ever fielded have made do with less thrust and worse TWR, SFC and MTBO characteristics than offered by any of these engines in their currently available forms. It is the failure of ADA to anticipate, identify and correct LCA weight management issues that has locked them into GE F404/F414. But there is no such reason to India to commit to GE for TEDBF or AMCA, yet that is exactly what they have done, which is foolish on both technical and political-strategic levels. It is misguided in engineering terms alone because what happens if history repeats itself and AMCA comes in significantly over its design weight? The choice of F414 (the biggest of these "medium" engines) as the baseline means that there will be nowhere else to turn and India will be forced to throw as much money at GE as the latter demands to further boost the performance of that engine. I can only thus only interpret the selection of F414 for TEDBF and AMCA in particular as a (misguided) vote of confidence in USA as a supplier of strategic goods.
Good to hear from you and I do agree with few points you have mentioned here. It is true that in 2030's US would be far more desperate to woo India to their side and I agree that the technological edge that F-35 presently have will diminish by then (especially if NGAD becomes a reality) but we also need to recognize that India isn't a stagnant entity either. India is 2030 would be very different from how she is now, size of the economy would be approaching 10 trillion (If a reasonable growth rate can be maintained), considerable bigger industry and global influence, along with these things, India's foreign policy would be even more rooted in autonomy and the need for a multi-polar world. 2030's India would have no geopolitical benefit in joining the American side in my view.

Now, if we take the case of military alone then let us assume that by early to mid 2030's IAF will comprise of 150-200 Tejas MK1a, at-least 30-50 Tejas MK2 (more or order), around a 100 Rafale (likely 40-50 more on order), 250-270 upgraded SU-30MKIs and the remaining Mirages and Jaguars. Finally, AMCA at-least completing a few flights and in development. I think this is a reasonable assumption for around mid 2030s for IAF. Here you can see India would likely have transitioned from a 4th generation air-force to a 4.5 gen air-force, this is surely inferior to what China will have at the time but that is the case even now, for example in 2023 India has a 36 aircrafts that can be considered as 4.5 gen and China has over 750+, I just do not think India hopes to compete with China in this regard because if that was the case then the 200+ VLO aircrafts in Chinese arsenal would've been plenty reason for India to frantically search for 5th gen aircrafts but that did not happen. Pakistan is another story though and PAF having a fifth gen aircraft may cause some concern, this could certainly prompt India to procure for aircrafts from outside in limited quantity as a stopgap (F-35, Su-57 and Su-75 could all be options).

Now, what are the chances of F-35? I think very low if there is any caveats attached to it, I do not believe India would jeopardize her global ambitions for such a limited procurement but if its a no-string attached kind of deal then it could happen (but again even here a joining the US side is unlikely to be happening). The Russian options are also good in this case, I do not believe CAATSA would be as big of a hinderance at that point, something like Su-75 would be a great stop gap aircraft, its cheap can be easily modified or upgraded in India and will not have any caveats attached to it. Another aspect is that by 2035 India need to go through 2 elections and India's opposition has always been more Russia leaning historically.

About the F-414, India is procuring them for Tejas MK2 and I believe none of the engine would work for the MK2 airframe and requirement.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
India tests its Pralay SRBM
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India on Tuesday successfully test-fired its surface-to-surface short-range ballistic missile (SRBM) 'Pralay' from the Abdul Kalam Island off the Odisha coast, a Defence official said.
The missile has been developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in view of the country's
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along its borders with neighbouring
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and Pakistan
, he said.
Off course, any new toy for India had to be pointed at China and Pakistan.

'Pralay' is a 350-500 km short-range, surface-to-surface missile with a payload capacity of 500-1,000 kg. The solid-fuel, battlefield missile is based on the Prithvi Defence Vehicle.
He said 'Pralay' missile can be compared with China's 'Dong Feng 12' and Russia's 'Iskander', which was used in the ongoing war with Ukraine. Pakistan also has tactical ballistic missiles in its defence system.
Yeah, Pralay is a new tactical ballistic missile for India. But its still not comparable to China's family of tactical ballistic missiles and HGVs. Pralay will not give India any decisive advantage against China.

What a childish video. It makes North Korean propaganda videos look mature by comparison.
 
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