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Blitzo

General
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Ship was launched in 2006. , but still lacks Israeli Barak-8 missiles and those are to be its primary weapon. IMHO, Indians made a mistake when they selected producer with so little experience to build such advanced SAMs.

Barak 8 is already a near finished programme for the Israeli navy and there is nothing wrong with the product itself, the problem is with transfer of technology, that is to say, the Indian arms industry were not ready to absorb the tech and had to rely on a degree of spoon feeding. Difficulty in absorbing ToT is a similar reason why the delay in MMRCA with dassault is taking so long.

Overall, IMHO, the delays in kolkata class is down to poor programme management, overly ambitious subsystem technology goals, and possibly poor subcontractor coordination. Integrating such an array of relatively advanced technologies probably posed its own challenges.
 

by78

General
Ship was launched in 2006. , but still lacks Israeli Barak-8 missiles and those are to be its primary weapon. IMHO, Indians made a mistake when they selected producer with so little experience to build such advanced SAMs.

I have to disagree. Folks at Rafael have a solid reputation, and Israel in general is well known for her advanced defense industry.

The preliminary agreement for co-developing the Barak-8 was signed in 2006, and the final contract was concluded only in April, 2009.

This begs the question, why has the ship been launched before the SAM's development was even started?

It seems odd to launch a ship first and then commence the development of its primary weapons and inevitably the sensors that go with them.

I wonder if the Indians had a different sensor/weapons package in mind when designing the Kolkata, but somehow it fell through, thereby forcing them to seek an alternative with Rafael.
 
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thunderchief

Senior Member
Barak 8 is already a near finished programme for the Israeli navy and there is nothing wrong with the product itself, the problem is with transfer of technology, that is to say, the Indian arms industry were not ready to absorb the tech and had to rely on a degree of spoon feeding. Difficulty in absorbing ToT is a similar reason why the delay in MMRCA with dassault is taking so long.

Overall, IMHO, the delays in kolkata class is down to poor programme management, overly ambitious subsystem technology goals, and possibly poor subcontractor coordination. Integrating such an array of relatively advanced technologies probably posed its own challenges.


It's nearly finished for years and Indians still didn't get full ToT. Delays in absorbing technology are to be expected, but original promise was first Barak-8 armed ship in 2010, even if first batch of missiles has to be build in Israel.
 

by78

General
It's nearly finished for years and Indians still didn't get full ToT. Delays in absorbing technology are to be expected, but original promise was first Barak-8 armed ship in 2010, even if first batch of missiles has to be build in Israel.

Why can't India just install Israel-produced Barak-8 missiles on Kolkata first and worry about local production later?

By the way, could you enlighten me on why the INS Kolkata was launched before the development of Barak-8 was even started? Isn't it odd to launch a ship first before developing her primary weapons?
 

Apong

New Member
hKKx5cR.jpg
At least the first stage is Solid fueled one although it seems as a descendant of Prithvi Missile, it have features of Agni Solid fuel elements, it has two stage, it is claimed to have a new and improved power motor, and a dual target seeker i.e. infra red and radar seekers inside its dome heat shield, which opened up once it leaved the atmosphere.

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delft

Brigadier
aircraft.jpg
‘Wake turbulence’ led to C-130 J aircraft crash

This mission includes necessarily flying low and slow. It is then essential to keep out of the tip vortices of the lead aircraft.
 

aksha

Captain
Why hasn't the INS Kolkata entered service? I mean, her construction began over ten years ago, which seems like a long time for building a destroyer.

What's behind the delays?
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MUMBAI: The gas leak on board the Kolkata Class missile destroyer occurred during testing for "peculiar problems" the warship was facing — all major components are functioning well separately, but start misbehaving when put in tandem — sources said. This accident, alongside the INS Sindhuratna fire last week and the INS Sindhurakshak blasts in 2013, happened during trial runs.

The commissioning of the ship, scheduled this year, may now be delayed.

"The warship's engine, the gear box and the shaft, all are doing well separately but the ship starts making a noise when all these function simultaneously. A thorough check of the entire machinery to correct the technical snag was on when the incident occurred," the source added.

The carbon dioxide leak killed Commander Kuntal Wadhwa, 42, who was inspecting the warship's engine room on Friday afternoon. An engineering officer, Wadhwa had topped in his batch. He is survived by his wife, a 12-year-old son and eight-year-old daughter. He served the Indian Navy for more than over 18 years. His parents reside in New Delhi.

"The officer's body was taken to JJ Hospital for autopsy and forensic tests before it is handed over to the family members who will arrive from New Delhi," said an official.

Two MDL personnel present near the warship were also taken to hospital for check-up after they complained of suffocation. They were discharged after being provided with medical assistance.

Yard-701 belongs to a class of stealth guided-missile destroyers constructed for Indian Navy. The class comprises three ships—Kolkata, Kochi and Chennai—all of which are being built by MDL. The most modern destroyer in the country, it is to be commissioned in a few weeks. It is currently at MbPT, undergoing trials.

Representatives from Mazgaon Dock Ltd (MDL) will also be associated with the inquiry set up by the Navy. The department of defence production, ministry of defence, has also asked for a detailed report from MDL. An MDL spokesperson said, "The incident would not affect the warship's commissioning scheduled in the next few weeks. There is no physical damage onboard. There was a gas leak. The ship will be commissioned on time."

At the time of the incident, the ship was at MbPT undergoing machinery trials. "The officer who died was the designated officer of the yet-to-be commissioned warship. He was present during trials along with more than 40 Indian Navy personnel when the incident occurred," the spokesperson said.

Due to delays in their construction and a problem found during sea trials, the initial commissioning date of the first ship of the class was pushed back from 2010 to 2014.

The tragedy has taken place 10 days after fire broke out onboard submarine INS Sindhuratna on February 26 morning, killing two officers—Lieutenant Commander Kapish Muwal and Lieutenant Manoranjan Kumar—and injuring several due to suffocation.

On August 14 last year, three officers killed and 15 crews injured in submarine INS Sindhurakshak. In all the three incidents, the warships malfunctioned during trial runs.
.since the hull and machinary are based on the delhi class destroyers they shouldn't have faced problems with gears,shaft and engines.
images
 
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aksha

Captain
Barak 8 is already a near finished programme for the Israeli navy and there is nothing wrong with the product itself, the problem is with transfer of technology, that is to say, the Indian arms industry were not ready to absorb the tech and had to rely on a degree of spoon feeding. Difficulty in absorbing ToT is a similar reason why the delay in MMRCA with dassault is taking so long.

Overall, IMHO, the delays in kolkata class is down to poor programme management, overly ambitious subsystem technology goals, and possibly poor subcontractor coordination. Integrating such an array of relatively advanced technologies probably posed its own challenges.

the problem was neither because rafael is incompetent nor because of tot issues.please read the wikipedia article,barak missle scam. .
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the indian government blacklisted both iai and rafael till they were proved to be innocent by the central bureau of investigation.the armed forces are prevented from buying from blacklisted companies, even when the indian navy begged to the ministry of defence that they did not have barak 1 point defence missles in reserve and there was a severe shortage .even the shivalik class frigates had to go without point defence missles.similarly barak 8 couldnot be bought by the indian navy until the alegations were disproved .iai and rafael were aquitted by the supreme court of india since cbi could not find enough evidence against them.the case wnt on for 7 years.transfer of technology began only in december 2013 after the case was dissolved
CBI files closure report in Barak missile deal Dec 24, 2013

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Delhi: The CBI today filed a closure report in a seven-year-old case of alleged bribery in the Rs 1,150 crore Barak missile deal in which former defence minister George Fernandes and the then naval chief Admiral Sushil Kumar were accused. The agency filed a closure report before Special CBI court in Patiala House saying replies received from foreign countries do not substantiate the allegation of kickbacks levelled against the state-run company Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI), former Samata Party officials Jaya Jaitley and RK Jain, Fernandes and Kumar. CBI sources said judicial requests were sent to the United Kingdom, UAE, Mauritius, Germany and Israel seeking details of financial transactions and other details of accused persons involved in the case. Former defence minister George Fernandes. Reuters They said Israel, in its reply to Letter Rogatory, denied making any payments to clinch the deal. The country also refused to give any further details citing confidentiality. The sources said replies from other countries also did not corroborate allegations levelled against IAI and other accused mentioned in the FIR. During the probe here, CBI said it did not find any evidence on the allegations levelled during the sting operation carried out by Tehelka. It was alleged that Fernandes' associate Jaya Jaitley and others had received a bribe of Rs 2 crore in the Rs 1,150 crore Barak missiles deal in 2000. CBI had been pursuing the case from various angles but every investigation hit a hurdle as Israel did not cooperate despite several Letters Rogatory and requests made through diplomatic channels for providing details about certain companies, the sources said. The sources said a decision was taken to close the case as there was no way that any headway could be made in the probe. The CBI had filed an FIR in a designated court on 10 October 2006 alleging that a sum of Rs 2 crore was paid to Jaitley, who acted as an "agent" to clinch the deal to buy seven Barak anti-missile defence (AMD) systems from the Isaraeli firm. Jaya Jaitley was then president of Fernandes' Samata Party. Jain, who was then treasurer of the Samata Party and was also named in the FIR, received a bribe of several lakhs, the CBI alleged. The CBI had alleged that Kumar "colluded with other accused to put up a note" to Fernandes to import the Barak systems despite objections from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). Fernandes not only approved the proposal for import of Barak AMD Systems but tried to get the proposal approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security despite objection by the then defence secretary, the CBI had alleged in its FIR. The proposal had also been processed on a single tender basis and the negotiated note of $268.63 million (whose rupee value at that time was Rs 1,125 crore) was also in excess of the earlier quoted rate by $17 million for which, there is no proper justification, the agency had said. Sushil Kumar was made the chief of the naval staff after the dismissal of Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat for publicly opposing government's decision to appoint Vice Admiral Harinder Singh as deputy chief of the naval staff. All of them had denied their involvement in the bribery case at that point of time.

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India clears Rs. 880cr Barak missile deal with Israel
Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times New Delhi, December 23, 2013..The defence ministry on Monday cleared a proposal to buy 262 missiles from Israel to arm the Barak-I anti-missile defence systems fitted on the navy’s frontline warships, a critical acquisition that was hanging fire for several years as the Central Bureau of Investigation was probing the 2006 Barak kickbacks case.




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The navy was running low on Barak missiles.

The defence acquisition council (DAC), headed by defence minister AK Antony, cleared the Rs. 880-crore missile deal at a time when the CBI has admitted that case will be closed due to lack of evidence, as reported by HT on Sunday.

Israel has said no Israeli firm paid bribes to any Indian individual or firm to bag the deal 13 years ago.

The 2006 FIR mentioned former defence minister George Fernandes and ex-navy chief Sushil Kumar, apart from unidentified officials of the Israel Aircraft Industries Limited. Fernandes and Kumar had rejected any wrongdoing.

Barely four months before the 2014 elections, the DAC also kicked off the process to buy deep-submergence rescue vehicles (DSRV) to save lives of sailors in the event of a submarine disaster, more than three months after INS Sindhurakshak exploded and sank in a Mumbai harbour killing 18 naval personnel.

The DAC’s acceptance of necessity (AON) --- the first step in making a military purchase --- for buying two DSRVs worth Rs. 1,500 crore comes more than 15 years after the navy projected a demand for submarine rescue equipment.

The Sindhurakshak disaster had underlined the desperate state of the navy’s rescue capabilities if a tragedy were to strike on the high seas. The tragedy lent fresh urgency to buy DSRVs, a senior official said.

The DAC also agreed to a navy proposal to buy 16 anti-submarine warfare (ASW) shallow watercraft, a capability expected to cost the country more than Rs. 13,440 crore. These vessels will help the navy detect and decimate underwater threats.

It will, however, take the navy four to five years to induct the DSRVs and the ASW shallow water assets, following the existing procurement procedure.

The DAC also cleared a Rs. 300-crore proposal to equip the army with 40 and the navy with one advanced light helicopters
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while on the other hand scam threw a lifeline for india's indegenous akash missle system ,both trishul and akash sam systems were to be cancelled,but only trishul was cancelled. in april 2014 air force version of the aksh sam went successfully through its final tests,while the army version did not meet all its objectivesimage akash missile
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The Indian Air Force on Saturday successfully test-fired two Akash, the ground-to-air missiles, which hit their targets flying 25 km away. While one missile tore apart an incoming target towed by Lakshya, a pilotless target aircraft (PTA), another took apart a receding target, again trailed by Lakshya. The IAF personnel operated the entire Akash system including the targets. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has developed Akash, which is already under production for the IAF and the Army.

Akash Project Director, G. Chandramouli of the DRDO, said the missiles intercepted their targets at high altitudes and when they were travelling fast. “We destroyed both the targets. The second one was a far-boundary, receding target and so difficult to intercept”, he said. On April 23 also, the IAF had successfully test-fired an Akash. All the trials took place from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur, Odisha.

Mr. Chandramouli called it “a notable achievement” that the entire equipment of radars, launchers, ground support systems and control centres for the Akash missile system for the IAF were realised and produced in less than two years, indicating the integrated capability of the DRDO, the Department of Defence Production, the Missile System Quality Assurance Agency and the Indian industry.

Avinash Chander, Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, congratulated the teams from the DRDO, the IAF, the production agencies and the industries for the coordinated demonstration. S. Som, Director, Defence Research and Development Laboratory, Hyderabad, S. Ravind, Director, Electronics and Radar Development Establishment, Bangalore and M.V.K.V. Prasad, Director, ITR, witnessed the flights from Chandipur.

Ravi Gupta, DRDO spokesman, called the Akash project “a great success story.” The IAF had placed orders for eight squadrons of the Akash missile system. The Army has placed orders for two regiments of the system. “The total production orders placed by the IAF and the Army for the Akash missile system is about Rs.23,000 crores. Already, the missile system worth Rs.3,500 crores have been delivered to the Services,” Mr. Gupta said.
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[video=youtube;HuKCZWqwx_o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuKCZWqwx_o[/video]
 
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Aeronaut

New Member
INDIAN AIR FORCE ASSERTS RUSSIA CAN’T DELIVER ON FIFTH GENERATION FIGHTER AIRCRAFT

January 22, 2014 by globalaviationreport

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The Indian Air Force (IAF) is apparently unhappy with the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) that India is jointly developing with Russia. According to a report in the Business Standard; “Even as New Delhi and Moscow finalize a $6 billion deal to co-develop an FGFA with capabilities tailor-made for India, the IAF has alleged the Russians would be unable to meet their promises about its performance”. The IAF has complained that the 5th generation stealth fighter has shortcomings in terms of performance and technical features and that Russia is not sharing critical design, technical, and cost information. Despite the Indian Ministry of Defence’s (MoD) strong support for the project, the IAF is remaining extremely critical of the “less-than-joint” joint fighter project.

The Sukhoi/HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.) FGFA is a fifth-generation fighter being developed by Russia and India. It is a derivative project from the PAK FA (T-50 is the prototype) being developed for the Indian Air Force. FGFA is the official designation for the Indian version. The two sides recently completed ‘deep design phase’ for the Indian variant, which would be lighter because of massive use of composite materials than the all metal T-50 prototypes.

According to Sukhoi; “The PMF project includes the design and development of a next-generation fighter, which will have such advanced features as stealth, supersonic cruise speed, high maneuverability, highly integrated set of avionics, an advanced warning system about the situation, the internal deployment of weapons and the possibility of a centralized reporting and electronic warfare system. The fighter is being developed on the basis of the Russian perspective aviation complex (PAK FA) according to stringent technical requirements of the Indian side. The further development of the program envisages design and development of a two-place version of the aircraft and integration of an advanced engine with increased thrust. The two sides are supposed to cooperate in joint marketing of the complex in other countries”.

In it’s report, the Business standard stated that “The IAF’s three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter’s current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI‘s AL-31 engines; and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, “a large percentage of IAF’s capital budget will be locked up.” The MoD and HAL countered the IAF’s objections by declaring that Russian officials have told them that the current prototype’s engine, the AL-41F1, is a temporary solution to let the flight-test program continue, and that a new engine being developed in Russia will eventually power both the FGFA and PAK-FA.

The IAF also wants an improved radar that enables 360 degree coverage around the aircraft, while the Russian aircraft version (for now) will only require a forward looking radar capability. Simply put, the Russian’s PAK-FA version of the FGFA will have less stringent performance requirements than those of the Indian Air Force’s version of the fighter, therefore, Russia will forge ahead with the development of its own PAK FA fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft. However, Russia like the Indian government remains committed to the FGFA joint development project.

India is keeping a very close watch on the progress of the FGFA project which has a potential of becoming the biggest and most expensive Indo-Russian defense project costing India $30 billion. However, New Delhi will loosen its purse strings only if its concerns about value for money, cost-overruns, delays and 40 to 45 improvements in the fighter aircraft’s design demanded are met by the Russians.

Sources

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Quon_Duixote

New Member
Why hasn't the INS Kolkata entered service? I mean, her construction began over ten years ago, which seems like a long time for building a destroyer.

What's behind the delays?


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Looks like Barak-8 is going to be operational(well at least the tubes are gonna be there).

Amongst these, according to a 2010 CAG report is the Long-Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAM) that the navy insisted should replace the venerable Russian Kashmir missile system. The LR-SAM shoots down incoming anti-ship missiles (ASMs) at ranges out to 70 kilometres, protecting the ship far more effectively than the Kashmir. But it has only been operationalised now after India’s Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), working in partnership, overcame persistent technological challenges. Even so, the Kolkata is being delivered only with missile launchers fitted, while the 64 missiles that form the ship’s complement will be added later.

Hmm... so looks like significant technological hurdles were being overtaken at the dock-yard to incorporate the Barak-8 over the last few months.
 
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