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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
India will not fight on its own. It will probably join the QUAD (US, Japan & Australia) to deter aggression In the Indian Ocean.
Questionable.

Japan won't. Australia ? Maybe, like fleet support and some "lookouts" near its western coasts.
US ? Yes but depends on how much India is ready to escalate.

The major issue is that China won't be "aggressive" in the Indian Ocean. You have to define "Aggression". The Indian Ocean belongs to Maldives, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, UK, Myanmar as well as a lot of African nations.

Esclation can only happen in Indian Ocean if China intrudesinto and conducts "activities" in Indian EEZ. Otherwise China can do whatever it wants in the Indian Ocean like other nations.

If India wants to "own" Indian Ocean, then it must start doing what China is doing in the SCS. Construct Islands, Defend it, stake claims and be ready for any escalations. Otherwise, Indian Ocean won't belong to India.
 

Brumby

Major
There are so many points being said that are inconsistent with international law and specifically with UNCLOS that it warrant a response.

Japan won't. Australia ? Maybe, like fleet support and some "lookouts" near its western coasts.
US ? Yes but depends on how much India is ready to escalate.
First up, QUAD is not a military alliance. It is a quasi formalized network of nations with like minded purpose and resolve regarding the maritime domain. Its purpose ultimately is deterrence against any nation(s) that act outside of established international law.

Any conflict arising between nations is not because of the presence or absence of an alliance but a formal declaration of war consistent with the law of international armed conflict. As established by UN convention, every country has the right to exercise self defense. Therefore any country be it Japan or Australia will have to make the same determination. Is it under threat and does it need to exercise self defense as a sovereign nation in response to such threats? The question therefore you need to not only ask but address is what kind of threats would rise to a level that warrant armed conflict involving such nations.

Making statements that country X would be involved or not in a conflict without setting out the conditions is rather superflous in reasoning.

The major issue is that China won't be "aggressive" in the Indian Ocean. You have to define "Aggression". The Indian Ocean belongs to Maldives, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, UK, Myanmar as well as a lot of African nations.
The Indian Ocean just like the South China Sea does not belong to any country. It is well established law of the sea for centuries which subsequently became embedded and formalized within UNLOS that international waters is global commons subject only to 12 nm of territorial sea entitlement for coastal states. The concept of EEZ was introduced as a compromise between coastal states and maritime sea power nations at that time such as the US, Russia and UK et al.

The Indian Ocean is dominated by India because of proximity and not because of legal standing. As such it has advantage in any conflict with China because of its location. However any actions at sea by India will necessarily be an extension of an already existing conflict in play and not something conducted in isolation. India cannot interdict or conduct blockade at sea against Chinese vessels under international law unless both countries are at war or it is sanctioned by the UN.

Esclation can only happen in Indian Ocean if China intrudesinto and conducts "activities" in Indian EEZ. Otherwise China can do whatever it wants in the Indian Ocean like other nations.

If India wants to "own" Indian Ocean, then it must start doing what China is doing in the SCS. Construct Islands, Defend it, stake claims and be ready for any escalations. Otherwise, Indian Ocean won't belong to India.

Such reasoning is almost comical. The reason why the world has generally been at peace since WW2 is because there are a set of international laws to govern country behaviors. It would be chaos if countries decide to take action not based on international laws but that might is right. That was the policy of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

There are no two sets of rules in international law that somehow it applies to the Indian Ocean but not to the South China Sea. You cannot create artificial islands and claim territorial sea out of it. UNCLOS set it out clearly and that was validated through arbitration. China's position is not based on legal standing but that might is right. The international community does not recognize China's claims in the SCS and that is where we are at the moment. We either have a continuing stand off or WW3 to resolve it just like with Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
There are so many points being said that are inconsistent with international law and specifically with UNCLOS that it warrant a response.


First up, QUAD is not a military alliance. It is a quasi formalized network of nations with like minded purpose and resolve regarding the maritime domain. Its purpose ultimately is deterrence against any nation(s) that act outside of established international law.

Any conflict arising between nations is not because of the presence or absence of an alliance but a formal declaration of war consistent with the law of international armed conflict. As established by UN convention, every country has the right to exercise self defense. Therefore any country be it Japan or Australia will have to make the same determination. Is it under threat and does it need to exercise self defense as a sovereign nation in response to such threats? The question therefore you need to not only ask but address is what kind of threats would rise to a level that warrant armed conflict involving such nations.

Making statements that country X would be involved or not in a conflict without setting out the conditions is rather superflous in reasoning.


The Indian Ocean just like the South China Sea does not belong to any country. It is well established law of the sea for centuries which subsequently became embedded and formalized within UNLOS that international waters is global commons subject only to 12 nm of territorial sea entitlement for coastal states. The concept of EEZ was introduced as a compromise between coastal states and maritime sea power nations at that time such as the US, Russia and UK et al.

The Indian Ocean is dominated by India because of proximity and not because of legal standing. As such it has advantage in any conflict with China because of its location. However any actions at sea by India will necessarily be an extension of an already existing conflict in play and not something conducted in isolation. India cannot interdict or conduct blockade at sea against Chinese vessels under international law unless both countries are at war or it is sanctioned by the UN.



Such reasoning is almost comical. The reason why the world has generally been at peace since WW2 is because there are a set of international laws to govern country behaviors. It would be chaos if countries decide to take action not based on international laws but that might is right. That was the policy of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

There are no two sets of rules in international law that somehow it applies to the Indian Ocean but not to the South China Sea. You cannot create artificial islands and claim territorial sea out of it. UNCLOS set it out clearly and that was validated through arbitration. China's position is not based on legal standing but that might is right. The international community does not recognize China's claims in the SCS and that is where we are at the moment. We either have a continuing stand off or WW3 to resolve it just like with Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan.

Are you OK?
A lot of your ramblings about QUAD and all where not at all necessary. The details about QUAD and its nature has been discussed to death in a lot many threads. My reply was to a certain someone who believed that QUAD was of a particular nature. And I put forth my opinion on what countries of Quad would do (irrespective of the existence of an alliance). Your energy may be better expended towards that someone who believed that some sort of team up existed.

What's comical is you bringing up UNCLOS, something that US never was a part of. Yet US brings it up often like it was its dead grandpa's will.

Indian Ocean isn't dominated by India. It's dominated by US (fifth fleet). I guess that's 'Might is Right '.

The world hasn't generally been at peace since WW2. Nonsense.

You aren't schooling anyone here Brumby.
 

Brumby

Major
Are you OK?
A lot of your ramblings about QUAD and all where not at all necessary. The details about QUAD and its nature has been discussed to death in a lot many threads. My reply was to a certain someone who believed that QUAD was of a particular nature. And I put forth my opinion on what countries of Quad would do (irrespective of the existence of an alliance). Your energy may be better expended towards that someone who believed that some sort of team up existed.
Unfortunately your reply is symptomatic of just form with no substance.

What's comical is you bringing up UNCLOS, something that US never was a part of. Yet US brings it up often like it was its dead grandpa's will.
What might be comical is the uninformed line often quoted that the US is not part of UNCLOS. The US was one of the primary architect behind UNCLOS. It is a statement of fact based on historical record of participation in the drafting of its provisions.. UNCLOS was officially accepted under US Presidential authority and has never been rescinded by successive presidents. This means it is binding on the US and it has operated within the provisions of UNCLOS. The comical piece is China who is a signed participant to UNCLOS continues to flaunt what it signed up to.

Indian Ocean isn't dominated by India. It's dominated by US (fifth fleet). I guess that's 'Might is Right '.
You are all over the place with ungrounded opinion that has no relevance to the conversation. Domination is when one can deploy resources in a manner that can achieve an intended outcome. If you disagree that India can dominate the Indian Ocean due to proximity you are free to provide a rebuttal. Conflating it with might is right suggest to me you don't even understand the nature of the conversation.

The world hasn't generally been at peace since WW2. Nonsense.

You aren't schooling anyone here Brumby.
Schooling applies only to those who can actually deal with issues objectively.
 

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
Unfortunately your reply is symptomatic of just form with no substance.


What might be comical is the uninformed line often quoted that the US is not part of UNCLOS. The US was one of the primary architect behind UNCLOS. It is a statement of fact based on historical record of participation in the drafting of its provisions.. UNCLOS was officially accepted under US Presidential authority and has never been rescinded by successive presidents. This means it is binding on the US and it has operated within the provisions of UNCLOS. The comical piece is China who is a signed participant to UNCLOS continues to flaunt what it signed up to.


You are all over the place with ungrounded opinion that has no relevance to the conversation. Domination is when one can deploy resources in a manner that can achieve an intended outcome. If you disagree that India can dominate the Indian Ocean due to proximity you are free to provide a rebuttal. Conflating it with might is right suggest to me you don't even understand the nature of the conversation.


Schooling applies only to those who can actually deal with issues objectively.
Oh, so other countries have to assume that US is part of UNCLOS even if it doesn't officially sign it but follow its provisions.

How very nice.

India isnt the dominant power in the Indian Ocean because it doesn't have the resources to thwart a US fifth fleet (if the 5th decides to attack India). Every other country that has Indian Ocean beyond its coast can be the dominant power of that Ocean as much as India. India's potential to dominate is different from actual ground reality.

Lots of "objectivity" emanating from thee.
 

Brumby

Major
Oh, so other countries have to assume that US is part of UNCLOS even if it doesn't officially sign it but follow its provisions.

How very nice.
Generally countries don't really care as long as their territorial sea and EEZ are respected. Basically almost all coastal states adjoining the SCS have disputes with China - that is the problem. Even Indonesia is being dragged in but it refuses to play to China's game of dispute since under international convention, historical fishing rights is not accepted as a legitimate claim.

India isnt the dominant power in the Indian Ocean because it doesn't have the resources to thwart a US fifth fleet (if the 5th decides to attack India). Every other country that has Indian Ocean beyond its coast can be the dominant power of that Ocean as much as India. India's potential to dominate is different from actual ground reality.

Lots of "objectivity" emanating from thee.
It is self evident that every coastal state considers it has sovereignty over its own territorial waters if not by enforcement then by legal standing as provided by international law.

If somehow it conveniently escapes you, the question of dominance was in the context of an Indian China conflict within the Indian Ocean. There is no question of US Fifth Fleet dominating the Indian Ocean because there is no purpose to it. Why you are even raising it as a point of contention is beyond puzzling. Dominance is just an abstract word without purpose or context.
 
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badoc

Junior Member
Registered Member
What might be comical is the uninformed line often quoted that the US is not part of UNCLOS. The US was one of the primary architect behind UNCLOS. It is a statement of fact based on historical record of participation in the drafting of its provisions.. UNCLOS was officially accepted under US Presidential authority and has never been rescinded by successive presidents. This means it is binding on the US and it has operated within the provisions of UNCLOS. The comical piece is China who is a signed participant to UNCLOS continues to flaunt what it signed up to.

You are all over the place with ungrounded opinion that has no relevance to the conversation. Domination is when one can deploy resources in a manner that can achieve an intended outcome. If you disagree that India can dominate the Indian Ocean due to proximity you are free to provide a rebuttal. Conflating it with might is right suggest to me you don't even understand the nature of the conversation.

Schooling applies only to those who can actually deal with issues objectively.
Rather what is COMICAL is to consider that the US is part of UNCLOS because the US is involved in drafting how other nations should behave in accordance with how the US would like them to behave without having to sign and ratify its commitment.
You have too much trust that the US will not dishonor their promises, agreements and treaties.

That the US does not sign the UNCLOS could only mean that the US will only follow as long as it is to the interest of the US.
According to you, all nations can just declare that they will follow the UNCLOS provisions without signing will suffice.
.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
What might be comical is the uninformed line often quoted that the US is not part of UNCLOS. The US was one of the primary architect behind UNCLOS. It is a statement of fact based on historical record of participation in the drafting of its provisions.. UNCLOS was officially accepted under US Presidential authority and has never been rescinded by successive presidents. This means it is binding on the US and it has operated within the provisions of UNCLOS. The comical piece is China who is a signed participant to UNCLOS continues to flaunt what it signed up to.

Bowowo. The mental gymnastics is strong in this one.

So one participate in drafting the 'rules but refuses to sign it. That's says a lot about the person/country drafting the rule the first place. Yet the rest of us who have signed it and follow it to the letter have been ridicule by the guy drafting.

And you are supposed to be the expert in law and order. No wonder the world is a crazy place.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Rather what is COMICAL is to consider that the US is part of UNCLOS because the US is involved in drafting how other nations should behave in accordance with how the US would like them to behave without having to sign and ratify its commitment.
You have too much trust that the US will not dishonor their promises, agreements and treaties.

That the US does not sign the UNCLOS could only mean that the US will only follow as long as it is to the interest of the US.
According to you, all nations can just declare that they will follow the UNCLOS provisions without signing will suffice.
.

Yeah, imagine a person drafted his last will and testimony, but didn't actually sign it.

Now let's see how far the claimant gets without the signed will and testimony. I should know from personal experience.

And Mr Brumby prides himself as the expert on law and order! Gee
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
Yeah, imagine a person drafted his last will and testimony, but didn't actually sign it.

Now let's see how far the claimant gets without the signed will and testimony. I should know from personal experience.

And Mr Brumby prides himself as the expert on law and order! Gee

Mr Brumby also claimed to be COVID expert and said he had an accurate model but refuses to show it to us.
 
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