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siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
As long as buying is an option, the enthusiasm and subsequent support for domestic production will diminish since the initial batch of domestic combat gear will inevitably be inferior to those from foreign suppliers. China got to where it is today because of foreign arms/technology embargo, which made domestic weapons development indispensable.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
TerraN_EmpirE said:
I said VT4 not VT5, and I gave an estimate 40% of Bridges in general. VT5 is a light tank that is a different category of Tank. If you want to count that then you start with Type 59G, T55, CV90120T, PL01 concept, FNSS PT Pindad Modern Medium Weight Tank.
In summary how many MBT weigh in at under 40 tons????? one T64 and some upgunned T55 variants that's it. and even then they are leaning to 40 tons class.
Sure there are a few in the 40 ton weight Class T84, T90, Type 10, PT91,Type 96, T72... but other than the Type 10 ( and some argue that as a light tank) most of these are the base weight without armor add ons or older versions.
So the problem is not unique. All MBT happen to fit in that excessively heavy category including VT4 and Type 99 and Type 96. Both Versions of the Arjun the Mk1 at 59 tons and the Mk 2at 68 happen to fit this to.

Arjun was always a limited order, the Fact the T90S Bhishma was being Ordered in massive numbers alongside small batches of Arjun was pretty much proof that the Indians never meant to make it their main line MBT. They ordered something like 1200 units of the Russian tank.
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Don't forget that 40 ton is recommended tonnage I have no doubt that there is safety factor built in those calculation So they can push that limit temporary
We seen convoy of type type 99 or type 96 lorry drive over bridges with no problem

India do have requirement of new main battle tank and Arjung was supposed to be the prototype of this tank But the test result is so underwhelming they did RFP for new MBT It is called FMBT
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Ultra

Ultra

Junior Member
ougoah said:
Bits of truth are revealed from years of speculation. Indians talking endless trash about Chinese programs from years ago and now one by one, successful projects are revealed. Same people thought highly of LCA and regarded it to being superior to J-10. We are starting to see the reality.

However this program is still important and does show India is capable of something so few countries can pull off on its own regardless of where the origin of designs and components come from. We have to remember that history has not ended and the race is not over. There will be a day where China and India catch up and surpass the West and Russia. This is almost a certainty. Everyone can laugh now, but the real winners are hard at work improving, while the real losers are the ones laughing.
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The real question that article didn't reveal is the EXTENT of corruption in Indian politics that allows their program to fell to pieces. Now they are talking about just scrap it and buy foreign-made planes. I smell even bigger corruption scandal coming.

If the indians are lucky they will uncover just how corrupt the top echelon of indian politics are pocketing the billions - I bet someone is benefiting from scraping of LCA and the buying of F-16 program.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Hendrik_2000 said:
Don't forget that 40 ton is recommended tonnage I have no doubt that there is safety factor built in those calculation So they can push that limit temporary
We seen convoy of type type 99 or type 96 lorry drive over bridges with no problem

India do have requirement of new main battle tank and Arjung was supposed to be the prototype of this tank But the test result is so underwhelming they did RFP for new MBT It is called FMBT
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Click to expand...

As a general rule of thumb, if something is classed as rated for 40t, it should be able to handle at least 80t. Although that should only be done on a one-off basis and not regularly, since that is when you start to cause structural degradation, so prolonged use at that excessive load will cause the structure to fail and collapse.
 
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
TerraN_EmpirE said:
The problem for India and Chinese weapons procurement is that the PRC and Indian relationship is borderline hostile on both sides. I mean less then a few months ago there was a boarder dispute flare up and both sides were talking war. Going from that to buying tanks from China is not very realistic.
The Arjun series seems okay as a tank for flat plains but almost no MBT are going to be able to take all the terrain types of India. 68 tons is about the norm for a modern western MBT to get lighter you need to start making tradeoffs of size, crew and armor.
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Do I miss something?:eek: Who is suggesting that? Not that I am going to chase someone, but it is not earthly thinking for the decades to come.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
taxiya said:
Do I miss something?:eek: Who is suggesting that? Not that I am going to chase someone, but it is not earthly thinking for the decades to come.
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I was responding to Forbin.
Hendrik_2000 said:
Don't forget that 40 ton is recommended tonnage I have no doubt that there is safety factor built in those calculation So they can push that limit temporary
We seen convoy of type type 99 or type 96 lorry drive over bridges with no problem

India do have requirement of new main battle tank and Arjung was supposed to be the prototype of this tank But the test result is so underwhelming they did RFP for new MBT It is called FMBT
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Click to expand...
Now you are getting there but not all bridges are designed with industrial loads in mind everywhere across the world.
The complaint was that the Arjun mk2 is to big for use in India. And to a degree this is accurate but only a degree. Some roads and bridges would be no go's others green light. The Arjun series thus far seems more of a limited experiment for the Indians, to see if they can design an indigenous MBT, and even as they ordered it they were buying far larger numbers of Russian T90S. I keep reiterating that because the Indians planed in every search I ran less then 300 Arjun series tanks but over 1200 T90S.
This seems to follow the high low standard that seems to happen in some militaries. Low numbers of high complexity equipment for special units higher numbers of lower price for main use. Like the T80 And later T90 in Russian service or the type 99 compared to type 96 in the PLA.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
siegecrossbow said:
As long as buying is an option, the enthusiasm and subsequent support for domestic production will diminish since the initial batch of domestic combat gear will inevitably be inferior to those from foreign suppliers. China got to where it is today because of foreign arms/technology embargo, which made domestic weapons development indispensable.
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Exactly! you have to persist . The first try is crummy then the second one is a bit better but still bad . Keep on going In China case she has no choice but to rely on herself .Other country has the luxury to choose but just like a pamper kid they invariably choose the easy way out
Anyway enough rant Here is video how the Chinese design ZTD 5
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
New Delhi ought to make sure that the various subcomponents for like, say the LCA, are completely made by Indian companies. Sure, the IAF might complain about getting saddled with 300+ LCAs that might not be as capable as say a JAS-35 Gripen, but that's not going to be the end of the world.

India needs to have experienced systems and subsystems manufacturers who are then capable of reverse engineering/substituting more advanced foreign subsystems (say like stuff on the Rafale, Superbug or whatever juiced up variant of the Su-30MKI in the works), essentially doing what China did on the J-11B.

Then, they can build the AMCA (after all, if CAC just skipped/curtailed the J-10, does anyone think that the J-20 would be the success story it is today).
 
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