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captonjohn

captonjohn

Just Hatched
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plawolf said:
While I think that the good General's words should not be taken literally, as there appears to be more than a hint of hyperbole about some of the most outlandish claims, I do believe that his comments are based on operational realities and not wholly invented.

This would fit in with my long-held doubts about India's ability to fight a protracted conflict because of it's over-reliance on imported weapons.

When you look at past wars and conflicts, where even the likes of the US, UK and France have been running low on munitions and had to make emergency orders when fighting against hopelessly outclassed foes, it really should come as no great surprise that a nation almost entirely dependent on foreign imported arms for its most advanced weapons could face serious logistical problems if it was to fight a near-peer or even superior force in a high intensity conflict.

In light of these new admissions, it would seem that the now infamous Indian war strategy of trying to knock China out of a conflict within a few hundred hours is more borne out of it's own logistical constraints as opposed to a ridiculously inflated estimate of it's own capabilities. That should give Indians more faith in the competence (and sanity) of their generals and planners, but it should worry them deeply about the condition of their military.

Personally, I believe that the root problem with the Indian military is that politics and politicians interfere far too much into the planning, acquisition and deployment of the Indian military.

Politicians are all too often dazzled by all the fancy sales pitch of snazzy new foreign weapons manufactures, and blows too much of the military budget buying high profile weapons platforms with little consideration about the operational and logistical issues that that creates.

I think the Indians should take Popeye's advice and stop trying to compare themselves against China.

China spends what? 3 times what India does on defense. Yet India far outstrips China on foreign weapons purchases. How can that be sustainable?

Domestic Indian weapons systems are plagued by constantly revising requirements because the politicians demand that the new weapons systems be superior to whatever China is developing, and when China unveils or leaks a new development, the Indians feel they need to 'respond'. So they revise their requirements, adding years and billions onto their projects. All too often, those projects, become so delayed and over-budget that they are killed off by the same politicians who's meddling led to the delays and cost overruns in the first place.

Look at the LCA as a case in point. It could, and probably should have entered service around the same time as the J10A. It might not have been as good as the J10A, but what does it matter? It would have been a start.

Where would China's aviation industry be if it would only build fighters that were as good as the latest fielded by the US and Russia?

Until India sort out it's domestic arms industry, and so long as it relies do heavily on imported munitions and weapons platforms, it cannot be considered as a true military great power no matter how new and fancy their latest imported weapons are.

If I was in charge, I would make domestic munitions a top top priority.

Buying advanced foreign platforms is just about bearable if you have indigenous munitions for them that are as good as what is on offer on the market. Jets, tanks and ships takes a long time to build even in emergency wartime supercharge production cycles, so not being able to make new MKIs or Rafales to replace combat losses will not have a telling difference unless we are talking about a WWIII type war that lasts years and years.

Wars burn through munitions stocks terrifyingly fast, and a few thousand missiles will be gone before you know it. Your fancy MKI and Rafales are not much better than a J7G if they are restricted to guns only, and will be butchered by anything with BVRAAMs left.
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Sir, I take your post as most constructive and suggestive. I agree most of your point but, I would also like to put my points here to make you more informed. I hope that wouldn't hurt anyone.

1. India has already understood this problem about heavy arms importing cannot be stable solution. Indian defence industry will have to be self-reliant to meet the challenge it facing. Our current PM's initiation of 'Make in India' is the first step towards this goal. Of course, there is a long way to go but things are in motion. India is already developing its own missile system as well as anti-ballistic missile system. There are a lot of things coming in near future.

2. India don't compare itself with China. Believe me, we don't compare or want to match your military strength. But, I must also point the geopolitical situation that has forced India to take some necessary steps to avoid any conflict in LAC. World know very well about Indo-Pak relations and current standoff on terrorism issue. India is unable to understand Chinease take and viewpoint about supporting Pakistan deliberately. In UN China vetoed to declare 'Hafiz Sayeed' a terrorist. This is what we are unable to understand. Terrorism is double sided sword and it has started bleeding Pakistan too.

3. Yes, I see a lot of posts comparing Indian vs Chinese military hardware but I believe these things are a little immature. Every country has its own policies, pace of growth hence defence doctrine. Indian military doctrine is focused on making it an 'defensive' force, rather than offensive force. That is the reason India needn't match its numbers with China nor with any country. But, we should also take a note that India is facing a serious threat of forced war because of terrorism sponsored from other countries. China is sure not among those countries but still Chinese infrastructure buildup along LAC and deliberate support to Pakistan pose a serious threat to India. India didn't questioned when China improved its infrastructure along LAC but when India decided to do the same China objected.

India is facing a serious threat of war that would be forced due to our neighbour's inactivity of tackle the terrorism. There is a state of confusion about Chinease view and that force India to do not ignore the possibility of Indo-China limited conflict in LAC like 1962. To avoid that India started developing infrastructure along LAC, upgraded air strips and deploying mountain corp to avoid any such situation.
 
tphuang

tphuang

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I don't think we are saying Rafale is a bad aircraft, but that sometimes you have to go for the value play rather than always picking the best aircraft and then having squadron shortage issues. Price and availability has to be part of the requirement. IAF constantly complains about fleet shortage, but then it picks the most overpriced aircraft available. Forget Mig-35, Gripen would've been a good choice and so would've super hornet.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
tphuang said:
I don't think we are saying Rafale is a bad aircraft, but that sometimes you have to go for the value play rather than always picking the best aircraft and then having squadron shortage issues. Price and availability has to be part of the requirement. IAF constantly complains about fleet shortage, but then it picks the most overpriced aircraft available. Forget Mig-35, Gripen would've been a good choice and so would've super hornet.
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Not to mention the logistical and training issues of having to deal with so many different types of aircraft from so many different places.
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

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Registered Member
I mean, in terms of their major aircraft you have the following countries all providing:

Russia, France, India (of course), USA, UK, Germany, Switzerland, etc.

Russia is the largest with:

SU-33MMI - 242
Mig 29 - 70
Mig-29K - 40
Mig 27 - 120
Mig-21 - 245

France has (or will have)

Jaguar - 145
Dassault 2000 - 50
Rafale - 36

The UK has

Hawker Sidley - 60
BAE HAwk - 90

The US has

P-8i -12
C-130J - 12
C-17 16

Germany has

Donier 228 65

Switzerland has:

Pilatus PC-7 - 75

Outside of helicopters, the only Indian aircraft really are the Hal-Tejas, of which about 20 exist now.

There are others...but it is really a hodge-podge, and in a real crisis would hurt India as they experienced losses and had to deal with the training and logistics of so many different types of aircraft.

That's why I have always felt that the Indians need to fordge ahead woith the HAL-Tejas and whatever else they can build to get the experience and used to producing large numbers of serviceable aircraft.

They have made some good progress with helos and the HAL Dhruv, Chetak, and Cheetah...but still have a long ways to go.
 
FORBIN

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Only way for IAAF for get more fighters eventualy buy Rafale coz :

- Urgent several hundreds of old Mig-21/27 retired for few years
- Tejas very late production have begin in ramp up but impossible build many for few years
- T-50 Russian AF received in 1st and this programm is not completely clear for and India so later...

Or only option buy more Su-30MKI but now with the deal for the Rafale the " feeling " is different and
Rafale is in 1st position :cool: and India need the best :D
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
FORBIN said:
Only way for IAAF for get more fighters eventualy buy Rafale coz :

- Urgent several hundreds of old Mig-21/27 retired for few years
- Tejas very late production have begin in ramp up but impossible build many for few years
- T-50 Russian AF received in 1st and this programm is not completely clear for and India so later...

Or only option buy more Su-30MKI but now with the deal for the Rafale the " feeling " is different and
Rafale is in 1st position :cool: and India need the best :D
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I think the need to replace those old Migs weighs heavy on the INdians.

Tejas should have been able to do it...but it is not coming together fast enough.

They know the French can build aircraft quickly...and they also got the types of weapons and tech transfer they wanted...but it is only 36 aircraft!

I feel they could have done as well with the Gripen, or the F-16, short of some of the tech transfer, but they certily could get about as many aircraft as they needed...and off of the F-16 line, they could get them pretty quickly...and maybe even build them there in India.

I mean looking at it, there are:

Mig 27 - 120
Mig-21 - 245
Jaguar - 145

That all need really replacing sometime soon. That's 510 aircraft.
 
FORBIN

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Jeff Head said:
They know the French can build aircraft quickly...and they also got the types of weapons and tech transfer they wanted...but it is only 36 aircraft!
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The plant can build sure 20 a year normaly 22 : two Rafale by month during 11 months " open " august closed and possible up to 33 we can sold :)
 
FORBIN

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Gloire_bb said:
India needs squadrons.

And for making squadrons 100 million euro plane, be it Rafale or Eurofighter, is the worst option around.
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Yes but they do nothing from many years Tejas, no new Su-30Mki ordered and now they are in hurry ...
India is the more big customer in the world and can have surely funds for up to 72 eventualy about 100 Rafale, main thing replaced the 120 more old Mig-21...
 
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