Indian Economics thread.

[Overbom]

Even before investing in primary education, you have to address the hunger issue first.
35% of children are underweight and 38% are growth stunted.
Plus we've previously discussed how child malnutrition in India has somehow gotten worse in the past 10 years

There goes the demographic "dividend".
More like demographic armageddon if anything.

Lets see India investing such enormous resources to provide infrastructure for the young population but then not have an appropriate return of investment due to chronic structural problems on raising their population quality (education, health)

 

[SanWenYu]

This man had yet to be proven wrong with his assessments on India vs China and the futility of believing IMF/WB as unbiased source when it comes to their economic projections

Did he say "Indians prefer poverty" as his finish line?

 

[Sardaukar20]

Someone said that India plays the best away game (diaspora) while China plays the best home game (national economy).

BTW, there's an interesting paper on why Indians get promoted much more than East Asians in the West:

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The West values 'assertiveness'. I think cockiness is a better word. That is far more common in Indian culture than all of the other Asian communities combined. 'Assertiveness' works in the West. Because in there, when people are assertive, they usually know what they were doing. But that's in the good old days, no longer the case today.

I would argue that in terms of cockiness. Indians over-represents the South Asian communities. And I would also argue that its not all Indians, but those from their noisy Middle - Upper class society. The cocky English-speaking Jai Hinds. They overwhelmingly outnumber any equivalents from the other South Asian nationalities.

East Asians have a more trusting society. Hence dishonesty is very frowned upon. Its much preferred to be quiet and competent. Than to be noisy and useless. The West don't appreciate that. Couple that with Yellow Peril hysteria, the West interprets the East Asians as scheming conmen. Particularly the Chinese, and for a time, the Japanese.

Indians OTOH don't suffer the same level of prejudice as the East Asians. To the West, the Indians are a fully colonised people, like the Africans. They are viewed with more pity than contempt in the West. Also, when Indians embrace the English-language and Western values, they are then elevated to the West's favourite Asian.

The talkative Jai Hinds are professionals at selling dreams. We see their pollution in the social media space everywhere. The best of the Jai Hinds gets the biggest workplace promotions. They have an unmatched charisma. They can be very convincing, if you fully believe their BS. The Jai Hinds are powerful when selling the dream. But when it comes to execution, it's someone else's job. When it comes to failure, it's someone else's fault. But if that dream really does come true, then it's full credit to the Jai Hinds. They are very similar to those sociopath corporate ladder climbers. Since many big Western corporations are now run by sociopaths, it's only natural that they would love to promote those charismatic Jai Hinds.

I can't help but think that the Jai Hind CEOs are running Western corporations like how they would run India. Full of dreams and underachievements. I think we might see these corporations stagnate, and maybe even decline in the years to come. Just like India.

 

[ougoah]

Elizabeth Holme's Indian ex-boyfriend comes to mind.

Various Indian management and CEOs that ran their western companies to the ground and made so many poor decisions that they have lost their edge and competitiveness. Certainly no longer top notch. Intel fired their last Indian CEO didn't they? More talk and bullshit than substance and genuine skill. I don't think Boeing will be letting Indian programmers do their work for them anymore either

There are of course extremely talented, hardworking and smart Indians living in the west who do also happen to have this advantage, climb to the top, and actually do well. Honestly far more ethnic Chinese that turn bad times around or lead innovation in some field. The jensen huang's, Chien Shiung Wus, Wen Ho Lis, Lisa Sus, Kai Fu Lees, Zhang Shouchengs (RIP), Qian Xuesens, Wang Tsus (Wong despite not being from Hong Kong or Guangdong) and so on just to name only a few ethnic Chinese that were allowed to be bigger and more well known names.

Silison valley's actual developers and those involved in US machine learning industry, over 20% are Chinese citizens, the 40% or so of "Americans" are about as American as the US Maths Olympiad teams.

Chinese in academics, working in US labs and research organisations. Even they accuse every single Chinese national with any tie at all to CCP as a spy but they can't run los alamos, NASA JPL, DOE and so on without Chinese talent. Even in biomed industry are even more represented than indians. Indian CEOs and managers however really are a dime a dozen in the west. This is a good thing though ... for countries that are not the USA. Indians also make a fair share of American technological might. Many of the best Indians get such a nice ride in the west and of course they'd leave! Their chances for promotion and acceptance is far greater than for east Asians because Indians are regarded as a conquered people by the Anglos. China is lucky it produces such a great surplus that leakages like those mentioned are barely a dent since for every Kai Fu Lee that goes to be productive for the US, there are 10 more in China.

Now if all those Chinese, Indians (and others) returned to their home countries if Trump's visa crackdown was allowed to continue, the US would be even more quickly drained of capable minds who are creating and maintaining their glorious top tier STEM fields and organisations.

 

[ougoah]

There is absolutely no skill in management. It's a mindset thing and higher ups favouring individuals and behaviour over another.

The real nitty gritty comes down to the scientist and engineer level. Here Indians are far less represented than Chinese (comparing two similarly sized nations with relatively similar immigration to US). The smartest and most hardworking Indian Americans go into medicine, law, finance, and business consulting rather than become scientists and engineers. I notice Iranians often go into science and engineering and are a fairly significant portion of Anglo west talent pool at least in academics. Not to the same portion as Chinese but they are a much smaller population.

 

[sndef888]

I don't see how India can succeed without building up a manufacturing base like China's. You can have millions of engineers but they'll be completely useless without a robust industrial sector. All they can do is continue being cheap outsourced coders or call centers for western countries. There is no upward mobility at all since Hyderabad can't compete with silicon valley or shenzhen/hangzhou/xiongan

It's also bad news for their defence industry because they'll be unable to domesticise tech like jet engines, marine turbines, stealth or radars

 

[Tyler]

Indians are trying to leave India like it's a natural disaster zone. It's pretty insane how desperate they seem to leave, for a supposed "democracy" which people are supposed to be desperate to be in.

They are flooding into the US, powering the US high technology sector.

 

[Sardaukar20]

There is absolutely no skill in management. It's a mindset thing and higher ups favouring individuals and behaviour over another.

The real nitty gritty comes down to the scientist and engineer level. Here Indians are far less represented than Chinese (comparing two similarly sized nations with relatively similar immigration to US). The smartest and most hardworking Indian Americans go into medicine, law, finance, and business consulting rather than become scientists and engineers. I notice Iranians often go into science and engineering and are a fairly significant portion of Anglo west talent pool at least in academics. Not to the same portion as Chinese but they are a much smaller population.

If Indians make 'good' CEOs. Then the Chinese make better entrepreneurs. It is common knowledge that running an established business, is far easier than building a business from the ground up.

Let the Indians and Westerners celebrate those Indian CEOs. They are just helping to run businesses setup by Western entrepreneurs of a different generation. Let Bloomberg, Forbes, and the Jai Hinds continue to celebrate them.

China pretty much dominates the field of manufacturing and is still expanding. While India's manufacturing continues to promise and disappoint. India's few areas of dominance like pharma and IT is also eroding. China can easily substitute India in those fields. More Indian CEOs working in Western firms is not gonna reverse this trend.

China is busy creating fertile ground for entrepreneurship and innovation. While India is busy pampering and celebrating their elites while neglecting the rest. When there is a healthy amount of innovation and entrepreneurship, miracles can happen. When there is elitism and protectionism; then stagnation and decline usually comes next.

 

[Tyler]

If Indians make 'good' CEOs. Then the Chinese make better entrepreneurs. It is common knowledge that running an established business, is far easier than building a business from the ground up.

Let the Indians and Westerners celebrate those Indian CEOs. They are just helping to run businesses setup by Western entrepreneurs of a different generation. Let Bloomberg, Forbes, and the Jai Hinds continue to celebrate them.

China pretty much dominates the field of manufacturing and is still expanding. While India's manufacturing continues to promise and disappoint. India's few areas of dominance like pharma and IT is also eroding. China can easily substitute India in those fields. More Indian CEOs working in Western firms is not gonna reverse this trend.

China is busy creating fertile ground for entrepreneurship and innovation. While India is busy pampering and celebrating their elites while neglecting the rest. When there is a healthy amount of innovation and entrepreneurship, miracles can happen. When there is elitism and protectionism; then stagnation and decline usually comes next.

Chinese mRNA vaccines is a product sector that China does better than India, which likes to brag about their vaccine makers as the world's largest.

 

[ougoah]

Indian American excellence is more in management roles and CEOs (as examples of top performers) when outside of medicine, law, finance where brainy and hardworking Indians often are well represented in.

Chinese American excellence is more in engineering, science, lab work, R&D, and founders. Top tech companies have heaps of Chinese (ethnic) Americans. Youtube, nvidia, patreon, zoom, yahoo, kickstarter, twitch, binance etc as just a few big name companies are founded by Chinese Americans.

There are actually hundreds but in tech maybe a few dozens.

With Indian founders in tech? Nowhere even close. They do occupy CEO positions like that actually means anything at the end of the day lol. In fact Chinese American CEO numbers are also quite up there. AMD and Nvidia are just two examples to the Indian Google and Intel.

The difference is China has 10x more of these types of people within China, working, progressing, making huge differences while India has Ambani. For every Jensen Huang Chinese person (taiwan or whatever province ) there are 10 William Li working in China on their own projects. This is just for visionaries/CEOs/founders/ leaders. On the engineer and academic level, China outnumbers the US even more. Armies of well trained and highly intelligent engineers.

If only the economy can pay them more. China's no India when it comes to poor remuneration for talent but it's nowhere near US levels where the equivalent mid level software engineer is well over 200K USD/year. In China the top tier employers pay around half that and that's already a stratospheric pay. Okay purchasing power adjusted, it's roughly the same but so many lesser engineers get paid way more in the US than pretty much anywhere outside of the West.