Indian Army & Navy news thread

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KYli

Brigadier
Indianfighter said:
Mr. Sea Dog, the following are photos of INS Kolkata (scanned from the print edition):
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(courtesy of Himanshu, Bharat-Rakshak.com).

Kindly read all his posts.
The following is one of his comments:

"Simply put, the INS Kolkata is a stealth destroyer with no equal in Asia."

"and finally the "Super" Bhramos and Barak 2 missile systems - unparalleled in Asia and only matched by the United States Navy "

I request a technical discussion, without rude arguments or personal attacks.
If you claim that the Bhramos and barak 2 missile systems is unmatch by others Asia Navy, you should explain and do comparison with details data available. Or you just come here declare what you think, then I don't see the point for debate. And Care to explain what is so superior about INS kolkata.
 
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darth sidious

Banned Idiot
Gollevainen said:
In no extence i dont believe the ship comes overloaded...Only little bit stronger armamament fit over P-17 class....thougth it would not likely have long range SAM, but VSL sthill if you believe the premilary scetches shown in public...But hardly anything more than typical load of modern desttroyer and lot less than for lets say in 052C...which is even smaller ship.

the 052c is about 7500/7700 tones

acording to the artical he posted it has longe range SAM sthill is medium at best

to recap it has this 1*ak100 gun 16* brahmos missiles ( note its much bigger then uran how are they going to fit it on anyways ) 30-48 VLS missile Barak sam adn AK-630 plus 533mm asw torperdo tube plus facility for a sea king !!!

the only ship I can think of with a similar density of weapons is the Taiwanese Geraing not even the most heavily armed russian ship has the kind of arrangement

Russian Sov ,American spurance/kidd , or they chinese 052 they dont have nearly as much weapons

this thing approach the level of Slava on arament but only has a hull the size of 051b :eek:
 
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MIGleader

Banned Idiot
Im courious to know exactly how stealthy this destroyer will be, especially when all these Brahnos and Barak launchers are fitted on top of it.

"Simply put, the INS Kolkata is a stealth destroyer with no equal in Asia."

"and finally the "Super" Bhramos and Barak 2 missile systems - unparalleled in Asia and only matched by the United States Navy "

I really have to question the crediblity of that stement. One thing, the C41 on this destroyer certainly cannot be as advanced as the Japanese kongos, nor the south korean kdx-II/III(future). Besides, Barak 2 is not as advanced as the sm-2.

The way i see it, The weapons loadout of these ships are oriented towards surface strike mission of Soviet warships, with less attention given to sea-holding abilities.
 

tphuang

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well, let's just make sure this doesn't turn into a bash India thread, okay, guys?

A couple of thoughts on P15A:
It's a ship that just got launched, still going through tests. It looks like a nice ship, but the performance of all the subsystems are unknown at this point, since they have been developed. The so called Barak 2 SAM is not developed or tested. The super Brahmos has not been developed either. So as of now, it's still going to be the good old Brahmos itself. Depending on who you ask, it is either an enhancement over exported Yakhont or not as good as Russian Yakhont. Let's wait until sub component development and the sea testing is done, then we can get an idea of the capability of this ship.

Also, it's not a valid explanation just by simply quoting an Indian officer. The Chinese AWACS developer also said that KJ-2000 is the most technologically advanced AWACS in the world. Does that make it so? No.
 

vincelee

Junior Member
we won't know until we see the ship outfitted. But 16 BrahMos in stealthy cannisters? Are they kept under the deck like on Peter the Great or ar they above deck in sloped housings? Because if they're above deck, you can have some problems. Same with all the radomes. Granted the radomes are constructed of dielectric material.
 

darth sidious

Banned Idiot
vincelee said:
we won't know until we see the ship outfitted. But 16 BrahMos in stealthy cannisters? Are they kept under the deck like on Peter the Great or ar they above deck in sloped housings? Because if they're above deck, you can have some problems. Same with all the radomes. Granted the radomes are constructed of dielectric material.

I doubt there is enough room to have 16* brahmos in launch continers the delhi is built to house 8*moskit or 16* uran

the brahmos is much bigger then the uran kind of hard to replace it in a 1-1 bases
 

jatt

Junior Member
img.php

P-15A has 16 VLS Barhmos and will possibly have the Barak 2 SAM being developed with Israel. The thing is the Barak 2 is already far ahead than expected. Its range will be 90 km and more than 120 km when another booster is added. This is to combat the PAF P-3s. As normal the super torpedoes. It will likily not have the Ak-630 guns but likily the Khastan CIWS and or Barak 1. And just so people can tell its Indian it'll have the signiture 2 helecopter bays.
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
darth sidious said:
to recap it has this 1*ak100 gun 16* brahmos missiles ( note its much bigger then uran how are they going to fit it on anyways ) 30-48 VLS missile Barak sam adn AK-630 plus 533mm asw torperdo tube plus facility for a sea king !!!

not even the most heavily armed russian ship has the kind of arrangement

Russian Sov ,American spurance/kidd , or they chinese 052 they dont have nearly as much weapons

this thing approach the level of Slava on arament but only has a hull the size of 051b :eek:
I do not have much knowledge about destroyers, but the above statement if true, is indeed very good for the Indian navy.
I apologize to darth sidious, because I reffered to him as member SeaDog, because I thought SeaDog asked me to post the photos of the INS Kolkata.

tphuang said:
The super Brahmos has not been developed either. So as of now, it's still going to be the good old Brahmos itself. Depending on who you ask, it is either an enhancement over exported Yakhont or not as good as Russian Yakhont.
The above statement is inaccurate, because the Brahmos has many improvements over the Yakhont missile. The Yakhont has a more basic guidance system that comprises INS and terminal homing for guidance, whereas the Brahmos uses GPS, a more sophisticated INS,also includes Infrared homing and highly advanced Electronic countermeasures that are not present in the Yakhont, besides the capability of engaging land-based targets also.

"'The Indian Navy (IN) is to induct the BrahMos supersonic multi-role cruise missile into operational service. Efforts are now underway to integrate the BrahMos navigation and guidance systems with high-speed data links that will be able to receive course-correction and terminal guidance cues from the navy's Heron II unmanned aerial vehicles and maritime patrol /ASW aircraft launched from shore-based air bases and equipped with SAR payloads, as well as from the ship-borne Kamov Ka-31 airborne early warning helicopter. Currently, as part of on-going efforts to achieve a fair degree of proficiency in network-centric warfare, three project 15-class DDGs, three Project 1135.6-class guided missile frigates and the aircraft carrier INS Viraat are equipped with high-speed data links through which tactical control of the INS Israel Aircraft Industries /MALAT-built Searcher Mk2 and Heron II UAVs is exercised while at sea for real-time maritime reconnaissance.'"

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"'The seeker uses a hybrid form of pulse compression, in which bursts of short pulses are phase-coded so that they can be compressed; the bursts can also be Furier-transformed to discriminate chaff clouds. This particular pulse compression technique was adopted to hold down peak power, so making ESM detection difficult.'"

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The above mentioned capabilities of a continous datalink, and advanced ECM are not reported to be present in the Yakhont.

"'The army version would have features like position updating, terrain-hugging, homing image analysis and higher degree of data processing.'"

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Image-homing analysis, position updating and much higher degree of data processing are features that are absent in the Yakhont.
Thus, the similarity between the Brahmos and the Yakhont is quickly tending to only the propulsion system, whereas they are increasingly being distinct in the sophistication of the guidance.
 

vincelee

Junior Member
in the scope of the debate, the LACM version of BrahMos should not be discussed; it's AShM vs AshM. The reason is that the Russians have no need to develop one more LACM while the Indians need more standoff weapons.

Now, regarding BrahMos vs Yakhont, it is true that BrahMos has a more sophisticated electronics package, but again, IndianFighter, you post technical information that is not valid for the debate.

""'The Indian Navy (IN) is to induct the BrahMos supersonic multi-role cruise missile into operational service. Efforts are now underway to integrate the BrahMos navigation and guidance systems with high-speed data links that will be able to receive course-correction and terminal guidance cues from the navy's Heron II unmanned aerial vehicles and maritime patrol /ASW aircraft launched from shore-based air bases and equipped with SAR payloads, as well as from the ship-borne Kamov Ka-31 airborne early warning helicopter. Currently, as part of on-going efforts to achieve a fair degree of proficiency in network-centric warfare, three project 15-class DDGs, three Project 1135.6-class guided missile frigates and the aircraft carrier INS Viraat are equipped with high-speed data links through which tactical control of the INS Israel Aircraft Industries /MALAT-built Searcher Mk2 and Heron II UAVs is exercised while at sea for real-time maritime reconnaissance.'""

what high speed data link? You can't go around saying "high speed" without some sort of hard technical facts.

""'The seeker uses a hybrid form of pulse compression, in which bursts of short pulses are phase-coded so that they can be compressed; the bursts can also be Furier-transformed to discriminate chaff clouds. This particular pulse compression technique was adopted to hold down peak power, so making ESM detection difficult.'""

yeah, alone with every other terminal seeker after the 60s. Fourier transform is not hard, you learn it in your second year in College of Engineering. It's just using a finite amount of trig functions to describe ANY waveform. From this you can do a F-transform to find the descrepencies in signal strength.

"The above mentioned capabilities of a continous datalink, and advanced ECM are not reported to be present in the Yakhont."

IndianFighter, I'm not sure where you learned debate, but double checking your facts should come naturally to any normal human.

This is from Bharat Rakshak itself, since you apparently don't trust anything not Indian.

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The missile's designers assume, that the enemy would detect the launch of the missile at the distance of 300 km and take measures to destroy it. However, being resistant to jamming, having the flight velocity of 750 m/s and making complex maneuvers during flight, the Yakhont ASCM shall anyway reach the target. It is not the high speed or jamming protection that makes Yakhont an advanced weapon system. It's major advantage, not too much advertised by NPO Mashinostroyeniya representatives, is the guidance system which has accumulated all the NPO experience in developing electronic systems of AI (Artificial Intelligence) enabling to fight against single warships (one missile - one ship) or even against a group of warships (a flock against a group).

this is one of the primary aspects of ECM.

Oh, and INS using the present target location method requires contineous data link, a "high speed" one at that.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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between brahmos and Yakhont, the same software upgrades that were put on Brahmos could be put on Yakhont. As for guidance system, the Russians had this thing called Glonass that it could use to guide all of its missiles. And also, the Russians themselves probably use a far longer ranged version of Yakhont than the export ones, because it can't export missiles with ranges of more than 300 KM under MTCR.

Anyhow, read this post by Gary, he seems to know what he is talking about here.
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Anyhow, that's all I'm going to post on this issue.
 
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