If Taiwan acquires the Tichonderoga cruiser

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You have to consider this issue from the viewpoint of the Taiwanese: They feel they are being overcharged for second-rate US military equipment, and with the GDP indicating negative growth for several years the public is questioning whether or not it is wise to spend more on military items that may not even see service (note the recent arms deal that was stalled for so long, with the diesel submarines which would take at least 15 years to complete delivery)

The general consensus is that all the equipment in the world can't save Taiwan because of its geographical disadvantage, and money can be used in a much more cost-effective fashion by improving first-strike survival capabilities, i.e. by hardening bunkers and runways, building tunnels, etc.

Zerg, we've had this discussion before. If you follow that way of thinking then there's no point in Taiwan having armed forces and it might as well surrender now.

The submarines are effectively on hold until the US finds a builder, with only a bit of money being provided to keep the project going - so that's not a real concern. In regards to the other major deals, PAC-3 and P-3C Orions are not second-rate - you know that, so don't repreat the nonsense being put about by those who oppose the deal.

As to cost, that's what happens by Taiwan wanting to have its cake and eat it (rule itself without pissing off China by making a UDI or changing the Constitution). If Taiwanese want to pay market rates for their arms, they will have to push the Taiwan problem to a conclusion.

Besides we are talking about Sea RAM, something which is not actually that expensive, but would be quite useful. The KMT are not opposed to expensive arms purchases - they've blocked spending in the past because they can't get a bribe as part of the deal. It's also down to politics, squabbling with the DPP because they want to control everything (like redraw the constituency boundaries to suit themselves, not give up their stolen State assets, etc). However, they have (so they say) agreed to the budget being increased this year with the Orions, PAC-2 upgrades to PAC-3 standard and some R&D funds for the submarines.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
Zerg, we've had this discussion before. If you follow that way of thinking then there's no point in Taiwan having armed forces and it might as well surrender now.

The submarines are effectively on hold until the US finds a builder, with only a bit of money being provided to keep the project going - so that's not a real concern. In regards to the other major deals, PAC-3 and P-3C Orions are not second-rate - you know that, so don't repeat the nonsense being put about by those who oppose the deal.

As to cost, that's what happens by Taiwan wanting to have its cake and eat it (rule itself without pissing off China by making a UDI or changing the Constitution). If Taiwanese want to pay market rates for their arms, they will have to push the Taiwan problem to a conclusion.

Besides we are talking about Sea RAM, something which is not actually that expensive, but would be quite useful. The KMT are not opposed to expensive arms purchases - they've blocked spending in the past because they can't get a bribe as part of the deal. It's also down to politics, squabbling with the DPP because they want to control everything (like redraw the constituency boundaries to suit themselves, not give up their stolen State assets, etc). However, they have (so they say) agreed to the budget being increased this year with the Orions, PAC-2 upgrades to PAC-3 standard and some R&D funds for the submarines.

Perhaps I did not make my stance clear enough previously, sorry about that. The reasoning that I used in the above post was the reasoning used by the pan-blue alliance in Taiwan used to stop the arms budget, as you correctly noted. I think the Orion and PAC-2 upgrades are very good purchases, the submarines not so much. The problem I have with the deal personally is that it is all tied together. I would be pleased to see the first two items in service as soon as possible, because they are force equalizers that could at the very least deter an invasion for a while longer. (The submarines are too, but logistics make them not a factor here)

I do not have objections to Taiwan buying military equipment on a whole, however I believe that some discretion is needed when determining what is needed, or what is economically feasible. For example, getting an aircraft carrier certainly sounds cool, but it would be economic suicide, and probably wouldn't be all that military useful anyway.

Taiwan's options are very limited - either it continues down the status quo path which will eventually lead to unification - or it will take a strong reform stance taking it in a new direction, like changing the Constitution as you pointed out - despite possible political costs.

When talking about costs, I was not referring to the Sea RAM itself, which I also agree is a useful purchase. And indeed, the KMT is not opposed to arms spending as a rule, they in fact bought almost all of Taiwan's current military equipment when they were in power - but as they are out of power they cannot get kickbacks from purchases, and will therefore stall as long as possible. That is not to say that every pan-blue lawmaker only has an interest group perspective, or to say that the pan-green side only believes in the noble goal of national prosperity.

Some encouraging news (from a Taiwanese perspective) is that indeed, it seems that they have agreed to increase the annual military budget, perhaps negating the need for a separate special budget that caused much debate.
 
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Some encouraging news (from a Taiwanese perspective) is that indeed, it seems that they have agreed to increase the annual military budget, perhaps negating the need for a separate special budget that caused much debate.

They have also said the supplementary budget is acceptable, though the very large additional budget has been dropped.

Though they're up to their old tricks again at the moment by holding the Legislative to ransom. Today is the last day of the Yuan's current session, but they've been pushing a bill to redraw the constituencies to suit themselves at the next election, despite the fact it's months away and could be delayed pending further negotiation. They've been saying "give us our bill, or we won't let you have the annual budget" - this the budget for all government spending, as if only the DPP benefits from it!

Hopefully Wang Jin-pyng will be able to call an extraordinary meeting, but it is just amazing how arrogant the KMT is that that they would kill off the whole year's spending because they want to gerrymander the legislative constituences - again!

UPDATE: This is quite incredible. The KMT refused to vote on the central budget, because they wanted to shove through a law that would have let them control the Central Election Commission - despite the fact the courts ruled the legislative can't award itself powers like that. The DDP refused, there were arguments... and the legislative yuan is now in recess.

So Taiwan will now have no money for this financial year for any public spending. China should consider sweeping in when Taiwanese soldiers all go on strike!
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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To everyone posting in this thread. Although the ROC politics would be a factor in the purchase of a Tico class..let's leave it out of this discussion. Shall we? Turn the discussion to how would the ROCN outfit the ship or operate it in a confrontation. Military matters only.

bd popeye super moderator
 

akinkhoo

Junior Member
btw, does ROCN actually have alot of manpower to increase it fleet size?

if the main goal for ROC is the defense of taiwan, that means only the taiwan strait is the critical operation zone. this is within the range of airforce and ground based missile system of both countries. will the AEGIS really matter in a battlefield of 100s of missiles? any missile defense capabilities that can only offer protection to a 100 or so ROC will need as many AEGIS as USA to really change the tide.

surface fleet is really only an option if you have superiority, and it is questionable if ROCN can archive and maintain superiority vs the growing power of china's fleet.

so i find submarine more useful against a missile superior china, the sub can still sink LST and troop carriers to halt the assault. AIP sub slient technology is becoming very good, even superior to nuclear ones thanks to fuel cell technology it is almost impossible to detect.
 

Sea Dog

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btw, does ROCN actually have alot of manpower to increase it fleet size?

if the main goal for ROC is the defense of taiwan, that means only the taiwan strait is the critical operation zone. this is within the range of airforce and ground based missile system of both countries. will the AEGIS really matter in a battlefield of 100s of missiles? any missile defense capabilities that can only offer protection to a 100 or so ROC will need as many AEGIS as USA to really change the tide.

surface fleet is really only an option if you have superiority, and it is questionable if ROCN can archive and maintain superiority vs the growing power of china's fleet.

so i find submarine more useful against a missile superior china, the sub can still sink LST and troop carriers to halt the assault. AIP sub slient technology is becoming very good, even superior to nuclear ones thanks to fuel cell technology it is almost impossible to detect.

I think a Ticonderoga or Arleigh Burke are total overkill for Taiwan defenses anyway. At the same time, people seem to underestimate the capabilities of the Kidd's that just got transferred over to Taiwan recently. With NTU, they are one of the best AAW destroyers in the world. I don't expect them to survive long in an invasion scenario as they're not being provided to totally stave off the entire Chinese Navy and PLAAF. They are there to upset and prolong Chinese force movements, enabling U.S. and perhaps Japanese naval forces the time to deploy to this region in large numbers to totally repel PLAN/PLAAF. And right now, the Kidd's provide this prolonging capability and more. Chinese air and naval units cannot just show up without the Kidd's upsetting PLAN/PLAAF movements.
 

jinpei

New Member
May be this is one of the reasons why they can't get the military budget passed. Just an observation.

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and to note, do not post anything that contains politics. It is strictly prohibited here. We discuss the military with no regard to politics. Do not do this again.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
May be this is one of the reasons why they can't get the military budget passed. Just an observation.

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and to note, do not post anything that contains politics. It is strictly prohibited here. We discuss the military with no regard to politics. Do not do this again.

Yup and the defense budget go up in smoke for another year well it can wait for another year

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D

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Yup and the defense budget go up in smoke for another year well it can wait for another year

Hehe, Taiwan won't have to wait a whole year for it to be approved. First of all the legislative will return in at least a few months. Second 1/4 of the legislators can call an extraordinary session to pass the budget. After all it's the total annual budget, not just the defence budget - no way the Opposition will veto that if they want to win the coming elections. Third the KMT want the defence budget.
 
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