Ideal PLA Ground Based Air Defence (SAM etc)??????

How heavy would a 76mm SPAAG like the OTOMATIC? That thing looks pretty heavy IMO.

About the same as an MBT, that's using a Leopard I chassis. The turret is lightly armoured compared to MBTs though.

That 76mm gun on top of the MBT chasis looks like it's going to tip over when you go through a bump on the road. >_>

I think the future for conventional CIWS and SPAAG will be advanced munitions. You don't have to go to 76mm. The MDG-351 35mm Millennium gun is smaller but has 1,000 rpm firing rate, as well as AHEAD munitions with 152 sub projectiles each. The gun and turret is much smaller than the 76mm:


Putting up a wall (or cone) of hot metal is still the best for conventional inner-layer defense today. I think the PLA should invest in systems like the Millennium gun. Rather than having to fire large number of rounds, you can shoot fewer rounds but put up more flak.

Having good CIWS for ground units will be critical in future battlefield, as your primary threat will often come from the air and not the ground. The requirements for a CIWS or SPAAG gun would have to be able to take out incoming ATGM's, LGB's, as well as out-shoot a helicopter's 30mm gun.

Going back to the original topic... I recall reading that PRC invested $500 million toward S-400 R&D. Anyone know whatever happened to that? I also saw some drawings of smaller missiles being packed into the larger S-300 style SAM containers. But looking at the S-400 photo it seems that they are mounting the smaller ones externally:


S. Korea is looking to develop a newer mobile SAM system based on the S-400/9M96 SAM called Cheolmae-2. Their current mobile SAM, the Cheonma/K-SAM, is based on the French Crotale:


I'm sure most of us are familiar with this missile, since the PLA use HQ-7. The range is limited, 8-10km. But the Cheolmae-2, based on the S-400's 9M96E-1 SAM, will have up to 40km range:


According to the document above, a mobile M-SAM launch box can be configured to carry the following:
10 x 9M96E SAM (40 km range), or
32 x 9M100 SAM (10-15 km range), or
5 x 9M96E + 10 x 9M100 SAM

The system use a roof-moutned X-band phased array radar, which is capable of tracking up to 40 targets and attacking 8 simultaneously, guiding 2 missiles per target.

If the PLA had sunk $500 million into S-400's R&D, I think maybe they should look to reap some benefits by obtaining this system as an upgrade to the current HQ-7 batteries?

I'm also curious about the 9M100 SAM. Internet sources claim this is the 9M100 SRAAM by Fakel, with the specs of 2.5m length, 125mm diameter:


These guys also make the 9M96 SAM, and you can see pics of it from above link.

I'm wondering if the 9M100 SRAAM has the potential to be developed into something like the RAM/RIM-116 CIWS system?

The whole point in using 76mm is guided ammo. Otherwise of course it's not really worth it. When using guided rounds rate of fire isnt as important. One shouldn't forget that heavier round has a flatter trajectory and achieves greater ranges. 20mm in ciws role is usually quoted to be useful to around 1,5 km. 30mm to around 2,5 km. By that logis, 76mm should easely achieve 5km. In ciws roles, every little bit of range and extra time helps. Perhaps for a truly mobile platform to shoot on the go as accompanying other mobile forces smaller calibres would be better - but for protection of fixed or semimobile targets - ports, bases, factories, radar and sam sites, etc - 76mm ciws with guided rounds sounds like the best thing out there.

Haivng the radar on its own vehicle without anything else on it, reduces the cost when hit by ARMs, but makes the system more expensive, higher personell costs, larger supply footprint, less mobile / deployable, harder to camoflage etc.

I think you need other ways to increase survivability, without "expending a lot of radars"

Doesn't China already have AHEAD technology? There were some articles on strategy center a while page about that.

I'm curious about the last question as well. Some Chinese articles say yes, some other sources say no. I can't tell the difference from photos of deployed 35mm. I would lean towards no. But it is probably under development.

"The 35mm cannon mounted on a 4-wheel cartridge has a cyclic rate of fire of 550 rounds/min. The muzzle velocity is 1,175m/s. The cannon fires high explosive incendiary rounds. It is not clear whether China has also obtained the Advanced Hit Efficiency and Destruction (AHEAD) round technology from Switzerland along with the Oerlikon 35mm gun."

Since AHEAD is munitions technology, I doubt the Swiss would sell today. The original Oerlikon *** license contract was probably signed pre-1989. The AHEAD capability was added in the ***-006 & ***-007 upgrades, and now used on the new Millennium 35mm system.

According to this article:


Oerlikon Contraves offers the Millennium 35/1000 naval gun system as the most technically advanced and cost effective means for engaging both current and future anti-ship missiles at ranges of up to 2.5 km.

I don't have any specs on the effective range of AHEAD munitions vs. missiles from ***-006/007 models, but we can probably take the Millennium gun's specs as a substitute (2.5km).

Using AHEAD munitions appear to reduce the max effective range on the 35mm gun, but prolly much more effective in shooting down incoming missiles.

====================

Going back to my earlier post, I like the S-400/K-SAM/M-SAM concept of mix-loading medium-range SAM and short-range SAM to the same vehicle. Rather than having separate medium and short-rage systems, or short-range only (to accompany an armored brigade?), it makes more sense to integrate them into a single platform. If you have 2 separate platforms (medium + short) you'd have to data-link between the 2 systems, but if they're the same system then that's not necessary.

The SPAAG would be the last-line of defense, when the SAM unit has failed. It can also act as a quick reaction CIWS, because SAM units and sensor vehicles need time to set up.

Well, there was that picture of the new SPAAG with the funny muzzle baffles. What could that be if it wasn't AHEAD?

PLZ05 chassis + AK-176 turret + Type-730 sensors