Ideal chinese carrier thread

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Obi Wan Russell

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Oh goodness, where to begin. Well, for one thing forget similtaneous launches and recoveries. Assume you want to recover on the landing area that runs from the port side aft while launching from the other "runway" for lack of a better term. Wind over the deck considerations will make this impossible. With the current design you can steer a heading that puts the wind down the angle deck that does not prevent launching from the bow cats. This will not be possible with Jeff's imaginary design. The crosswind component will be too great. Splitting the difference by placing the wind on the bow will make recovery unsafe. This design also limits you to only two cats, compared to four on modern USN designs. Assuming you could finagle the winds to allow recoveries while launching, only one cat will be available compared to two on USN designs. The flight deck of a Nimitz is much more flexible than this one. Jeffs deck looks suspicioiusly like the design of the cancelled USS United States. United States was cancelled in favor of the Forrestal class, to our great fortune.
Jeff talks about the advantage of the aft superstructure in terms of turbulence, then places all the weaponry forward with their radars, etc, thus creating a huge eddy at the ship's bow. Nice.
The centerline elevator configuration was dropped decades ago because centerline elevators eat into precious hanger space. This is why every carrier since the 1950's has had deck edge elevators. The only reason the Essex class had two centerline elevators and one deck edge elevator was to keep that class narrow enough to fit through the Panama Canal ( and this explains why the sole deck edge elevator amidships to port folded flat against the side of the ship, otherwise it would foul the sides of the locks ). Early design proposals for the Essex class in the late 1930's included deck edge elevators port and starboard. Later angle deck conversions of Essex class carriers brought this original design feature to fruition.
Placing the armament in one area forward leaves much of the ship vulnerable to attack. Better to place sponsons at the corners with RAM and ESSM as on a Nimitz.
Last, a typical big container ship has exactly the wrong powerplant for a carrier. These ships are designed to operate on regular scheduled routes at a specific speed necessary to meet published schedules for their customers. Most make 25-27 knots( while a Nimitz and her escorts all make well over 40kts ). That is about the only speed they make. The single diesel engines used are typically four decks tall and run at one rpm. The shaft is turned at engine speed, there are no reduction gears. Slowing the engine down from cruise speed is not as simple as one might imagine. These engines make at most only 105 rpm. They won't turn much slower. Reversing the engine entails stopping the engine. Once stopped a crew member must climb the engine and reverse a gear on the cam shaft, taking several minutes to do. Only then can the engine be restarted in the opposite direction. These are not flexible power plants required of combat ships, and there is no redundancy. One engine, one shaft, one rudder. Damage one and the ship is DIW.

Where to begin indeed. Wind over deck. Cotrary to popular belief this does not have to be on the exact axis of the landing runway or aligned with the cats perfectly. Wind itself doesn't flow in perfect straight linesand variations of 10 degrees or more in wind direction are quite common from minute to minute. CTOL carriers steaming 'into wind' are doing just that. The wind is flowing staright down the deck as near as possible. Aircraft landing on a ship with an 8 degree angled deck willl have a sidewind at that angle too. this is what pilots are trained to do on land as well, since runways at airbases cannot normally turn into wind. Remember an angled deck carrier will also be moving to the right of an aircraft on approach, pilots compensate for this quite easily.

Jeff's design has to be considered in context, it isn't about putting a new generation of carriers into frontline peacetime service, it's more a spiritual decendant of the WW2 escort carrier conversions or MAC ships. Far from ideal but very functional and useful in time of war. They cruise at about 20 knots in peacetime but in war they will be a lot lighter, even after conversion. They won't be hauling massive weight loads (cargo containers) around so speed will increase. That's just basic physics. You don't need to speed like a hydrofoil to launch aircraft, if their is enough WOD then 25 knots is more than enough. British CTOL carriers in the 60s and 70s often criticised for small size and low speed could launch American types like the Phantom, Corsair and Intruder at about 25 knots without difficulty. Ark Royal, the only fully Phantom capable carrier could only make 29 knots in her later years (down from a designed speed of 31 knots) and this didn't cause any problems.

The USS United States was cancelled in favour of USAF B-36 Bombers. USS Forrestal came along a while later because of experience in the Korean War demonstrated carriers were still necessary. The original design of the Forestal was basically the same as the United States, with less emphasis on operating large nuclear bombers in favour of conventional strike aircraft. It was modified whilst under construction to incorporate British inventions such as the Angled deck, Steam catapults and the mirror landing sight. Only when these were incorporated could an Island be introduced to what had previously been a flush decked design.

The Centreline elevator was dropped decades ago. Except it wasn't. Unless you are American. Around the world carriers are still coming off the slipways today with centreline elevators. The ships we are debating here, are most definitley not to be built in American yards so imposing American rules on the design isn't possible. These ships are conversions, not purpose built, so there will be compromises such as centreline elevators in order to make the ships work. Try comparing them with other converted vessels such as RFA Argus rather than purpose built vessels like the Nimitz class.

Turbulence from the superstructure will be trailing the ship directly aft whereas the aircraft in the landing circuit will be approaching off axis at an angle, thus should not encounter any serious problems. If the weapons mounted forward are in VLS silos and mounted lower than flight deck level then there shouldn't be any seroious problems there either. The Invincible class had a large Missile launcher with a large blast deflector mounted forward and didn't have any turbulence problems as a result.
 

Jeff Head

General
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Where to begin indeed. Wind over deck. Cotrary to popular belief this does not have to be on the exact axis of the landing runway or aligned with the cats perfectly...

Jeff's design has to be considered in context, it isn't about putting a new generation of carriers into frontline peacetime service, it's more a spiritual decendant of the WW2 escort carrier conversions or MAC ships. Far from ideal but very functional and useful in time of war...

The Centreline elevator was dropped decades ago. Except it wasn't. Unless you are American. Around the world carriers are still coming off the slipways today with centreline elevators. The ships we are debating here, are most definitley not to be built in American yards so imposing American rules on the design isn't possible. These ships are conversions, not purpose built, so there will be compromises such as centreline elevators in order to make the ships work. Try comparing them with other converted vessels such as RFA Argus rather than purpose built vessels like the Nimitz class.

Turbulence from the superstructure will be trailing the ship directly aft whereas the aircraft in the landing circuit will be approaching off axis at an angle, thus should not encounter any serious problems. If the weapons mounted forward are in VLS silos and mounted lower than flight deck level then there shouldn't be any seroious problems there either. The Invincible class had a large Missile launcher with a large blast deflector mounted forward and didn't have any turbulence problems as a result.
Obi Wan...you have rendered my response wholly un-necessary. The vessels are conversions, meant, in a fictional tale, to get as effective a platform on the seas as possible at as low a cot as possible so that many of them could be built in the fictional war scenario.

All you have said were considerations in coming up with the admittedly fictitous design for a fictional story. As such it is not meant to be an actual, real world design. But thanks for articulating things so directly and clinically...better than I could have doen becaue of my emotional attachment through five years of work on the book series.

BTW, on the aft port and aft starboard sides, on the superstructure, there are CIWS...one on each side, in addition to the two up front...and yes, their are VLS cells forward, one set for AA work at flight deck level, and one below the level of the flight deck for the larger ASMs.
 
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su-27

New Member
Pardon Jeff, don't you think could be better develop a VTOL fighter based on the YAK-141?
With a good VTOL fighter could be possible use merchant ships as light carriers without big modifies as English made in Falklands war.
Or do you think that your carrier design could be used for strike operations?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Pardon Jeff, don't you think could be better develop a VTOL fighter based on the YAK-141?
With a good VTOL fighter could be possible use merchant ships as light carriers without big modifies as English made in Falklands war.
Or do you think that your carrier design could be used for strike operations?
This carrier design is purely fictional...but it is based on a container ship design. In the story it employs an airwing of 48 aircraft of which 36 are SU-27 (or their variants) type strike aircraft launched from two forward catapaults.

The Chinese would clearly either have to have a cat design, or a workable V/STOL design to make this vessel possible.

To date they have neither.

I believe that the Yak-141 was a good concept design. But the Soviets, and now the Russians, never put it into mass production.

The F-35 will be the first, mass produced, servicable super-sonic V/STOL aircraft deployed. I think that design is the best out there to date and has certainly benefited from all that went before.

Whether the Chinese will produce one of their own is yet to be seen. They have the manufacturing capability, but would need a lot of operational experience helping them in the design. The Russians have very little practical operational experience in V/STOL operations. They do have some as a result of the Yaks.

The US, the UK, Italy, Spain, and others western navies have the types of practical experience that the PLAN would need to rely on. Otherwise, they would have to learn from scratch which the Soviets and Russians have shown to be very expensive and a very long, arduous process with little prospect for long term success.

But that is just my opinion.
 

su-27

New Member
Thank'you Jeff.
But, when I said Vtol fighter based on YAK-141, I visualize the YAK only as a start point to develop the new fighter.

Chinese announced that they will build LHDs, do you think that they have the capability to employ STOVL fighters on these ships?

I remember also that many modern Navies started their carrier tradition with STOVL fighters. Also we Italians started in 1985 with 551 Giuseppe Garibaldi and now with the new 550 Cavour we will reach the goal of two carriers:
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Thank'you Jeff.
But, when I said Vtol fighter based on YAK-141, I visualize the YAK only as a start point to develop the new fighter.

Chinese announced that they will build LHDs, do you think that they have the capability to employ STOVL fighters on these ships?

I remember also that many modern Navies started their carrier tradition with STOVL fighters. Also we Italians started in 1985 with 551 Giuseppe Garibaldi and now with the new 550 Cavour we will reach the goal of two carriers:
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If they build a full deck amphibious assault ship, then they will have the capability of operating VSTOL aircraft off of it. They would, of course, have to have the V/STOL fighter to do so.

The YAK-141 would be a good start point, but they would have to have some people with significnt operational experience and capabilities to assist them if they wanted a successful development any time soon.

I am very aware of the Italian developments. Tha
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is an excellent, new carrier with lots of multi-role capabilities. And the
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still is!

With the
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Horizon frigates(really DDGs IMHO), the
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Amphibious Assault ships, and all the other vessels, the Italian Navy is something to be very proud of.
 
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man overbored

Junior Member
Obi Wan...you have rendered my response wholly un-necessary. The vessels are conversions, meant to get as effective a platform on the seas as possible at as low a cot as possible so that many of them could be built in the fictional war scenario.

All you have said were considerations in coming up with the admittedly fictitous design. Thanks for articulating it so directly and clinically...better than I could have doen becaue of my emotional attachment through five years of work on the book series.

BTW, on the aft port and aft starboard sides, on the superstructure, there are CIWS...one on each side, in addition to the two up front...and yes, their are VLS cells forward, one set for AA work at flight deck level, and one below the level of the flight deck for the larger ASMs.

Ah, CV wind limits. Raise your hand if you ever flew any naval aircraft from a real live warship at sea. Thought so. Here is a quote from the Natops Landing Signal Office Manual NAVAIR 00-80T-104 discussing wind over the deck requirements for landing on a CV. It should give you a flavor of some of the considerations the non experienced cannot even imagine.

"Turbulence and ramp burble increase significantly
with RHW values in excess of optimum, resulting in an
increased frequency of high landing gear loading.
Winds starboard of the angle also adversely affect
recovery conditions. The burble, aft of the ramp, becomes
stronger and moves closer to the ship as the magnitude
of recovery crosswind is increased. The airflow
disturbance requires corrective pilot technique if the recovery
crosswind exceeds 7 knots for all carriers. Even
with correctivep pilot technique, sinking speeds of 3 to 6 feet
per second in excess of those experienced during normal
(no recovery crosswind) operations can be expected. For
these reasons, recovery headwind should be maintained
as closely as possible to the optimum .velocity and the
centerline of the landing area. Shipboard aircraft recovery
operations with recovery crosswinds in excess of
those specified should be avoided. Refer to Aircraft Recovery
Bulletin No. 10-10."

Here is the link, read page 79 of the pdf:

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Now if you look at the arrangement of the cats on most US carriers you will see the port bias. A CATOBAR carrier places the relative wind right down the angle deck. Any significant crosswind over the angle deck makes the trap extremely difficult and dangerous. There are a host of sources of turbulence aft of a carrier, including the shape of the "round down" at the aft edge of the landing area and the position of the superstructure. Nothing sticks up above the deck except the island and associated nearby masts. Notice too that the cats are either pointed directly forward or angled slightly to port. An aircraft launching is basically in extremis when it leaves the ship. There is a 10 to 20 foot drop in altitude as the aircraft leaves the ship. It is barely flying. Crosswind at this critical stage must be avoided. Jeff's design will not be able to launch while aircraft are being recovered as the cross wind component would be prohibitive. The carrier will always conduct flight ops with the landing area aligned with realtive wind so only one landing area is necessary. There is a reason the Nimitz class has been built the way it has for over three decades and that is because it is functional and efficient. Deck space is premium on any carrier and the arrangement of Nimitz elevators has been tuned over the years to maximize the speed with which aircraft may be moved from the landing area and struck below after a trap, or armed and brought to a cat for launch.
As for cost, Jeff's design duplicates all the expensive arrestor gear and would require two FLOLS, two ACLS's and two AMOAC's, basically all the approach guidance and automatic landing features would have to be duplicated as each of these are specific to an extended landing area centerline. This saves money???
Another way to approach an inexpensive carrier, and one I think the PLAN would be smart to adopt, is STOVL. China could fund the completion of the Yak-41 Freestyle for this purpose. Below is a discussion of the various condsiderations the RN had to examine when determining the shape and size of their flight and hanger decks. It is not a guessing game! Flight deck and ship size have a profound effect on the possible daily sortie rate obtainable, probably the most critical metric in a carrier's design. If the ship cannot support a high sortie rate for it's embarked air wing the ship fails. Period. There is also a discussion of hanger deck height, which in US carriers is around 7.5 meters. Have fun. This is the real deal, not fantasy.

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A STOVL design built on a merchant ship hull makes a lot of sense and would be economical to do compared to a CATOBAR design.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Here is a quote from the Natops Landing Signal Office Manual NAVAIR 00-80T-104 discussing wind over the deck requirements for landing on a CV. It should give you a flavor of some of the considerations the non experienced cannot even imagine...
You make good points, as you did on the last post.

My point is not that those points your are making are inaccurate in the least.

For example, the portions from NAVAIR 00-80T-104 that you quote are not arguable and I do not attempt to argue them...but I believe they can be mitigated to one extent or another by the use the vessel and the operational technique developed for particular conditions. Clealry not to the optimal extent of a full carrier.

Clearly, there will be conditions where take-offs and landings will not be possible simultaneoulsy, perhaps far too many to make such a design usable. There will also be conditions where they are.

In addition the two sets of landing systems you describe would be a relative small cost compared to the whole.

Finally, and most importantly, the whole concept is for a fictional novel. I believe I responded on this thread initially to another posters request regarding the picture from the novel.

Let me make it clear, the specific X-Deck design was certainly not meant to be any kind of firm, set-in-concrete design requirement or consideraion for true life operations. It is interesting to talk about those consideration and weigh the pros and cons...but it is fairly academic.

But the concept of taking a container vessel and using it to develop a modular manufacturing methodology for potentially producing operational sea-control carriers is something that has been, and probably will continue to be, discussed.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Jeff is not the only one who drew up the x-deck design, here's another one:
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Realistically, the chance of China, or any other country building a X-Deck carrier today or in this century is probably zero.

Quick merchant ship refits/conversions are usable with rotary aircraft and possibly light VTOL aircraft (as seen in Falklands War). But as merchant ships they're not built to military specs.

Pre-WW2 the Japanese had purpose-built some fleet oilers for possible future conversion to light aircraft carriers. This would be an exception.

The difference between fiction vs. reality is, fiction explores "what if" and reality, in military matters, is measured by the actual beef patty on the burger and not what's advertised.

The PLAAF/PLAN has no VTOL or V/STOL fixed-wing combat aircraft in deployment, nor have we heard of any development projects. What we have heard, is possible sale of Su-33's. That's a burger patty with much more substance than what you see on an ad flyer.
 
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